R+L = ??? (New Theory)

[juleska]

Stumbled across this on YouTube today. The part of me that is so deeply invested in R+L=J wants to reject this outright. But this is good food for thought regardless.

 

[Groot]

I saw this awhile ago, and quite like the idea, but it is full of holes. Ned was in Winterfell while Dany was growing up, so Robert could have killed her at any point, and he wouldn't have been protecting her at all. So I just don't see that Ned has been protecting Dany enough to be his sisters child, or his brothers.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

The argument about his dream haunting him can also be used in R+L=J's favour. Why must it be Dany? Robert is reaching over seas for Dany so what would protect Jon at the Wall? Jon is all alone there, his oath his only shield and Ned isn't protecting him at all. Seeing how hard Robert is reaching for Dany, if he found out about Jon, wouldn't Ned be failing all the same? He sent Jon away and he wouldn't be keeping him safe thus a possible broken promise. It can apply to both the same and we had Ned's POVs about Dany and POVs don't lie. He had never at any point considered her as anything more than a child a world away while with Jon, it was as if he is even too scared to think about him much the same as it is about his promise. I abandoned R+L=J when Ned thinks about going to The Wall and about telling Jon about his mother, but this in no way persuades me R+J=D and B+A=J.

Rhaegar wanting to burn down the child makes no sense with Rhaegar's established character. Not all Targaryen's are mad men. The coin has two faces after all. We have many sources, though scarce about Rhaegar, but he definitely isn't a mad one. Even Jaime's POV notes that Rhaegar planned to change his father's abhorrent ways somehow after the Rebellion was quenched. Barristan, Ned, Jorah, even Cersei... and well, at least Barristan was always there and could see more than others could and he isn't a fool by a longshot. He was pretty realistic about Rhaegar, outlining his strong and weak points. There isn't anything to justify such thoughts about Rhaegar as a mad Targaryen willing to burn his child and a woman he supposedly loved. As for Egg mention, Egg was likely trying to revive the dragons via using wildfire on them. The circumstances were never explained, but let's just remember how Egg was treated by Dunk and let's remember Dunk was there too. Those two aren't capable of hurting innocents. Just give Dunk and Egg a quick read and you'll see for yourself. BTW, not saying they couldn't have possible used criminals for that, but Egg abhorred the way Bloodraven did things. I can't see him going that route.

As for Howland Reed argument, he was at a heavy disadvantage there when he was beaten up by those squires as he isn't the brawn type. He needs space to use circumstances to his advantage and quite likely poisons judging what we know of his folk.

Also, Viserys, not that smart! If Viserys thought that much in advance, he would end up as he had.

I won't even get into the fire and ice segment as that is so vague, it can pretty much be applied to just about any child if I stretch it enough.

It is a nice food for thoughts but that's all I can see it as it grasps at straws far too much with far too little actual implications in that direction. R+L=J at least has those implications.

P.S. Since I forgot this, Rhaegar abandoned thoughts about himself being Azor Ahai and/or TPWWP quite a bit before his dalliances with Lyanna.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Kinda unrelated, but this reminds me of a conversation friend and I had a long time ago. It seems to be that the more time passes, the more we are all willing to grasp at straws.

Jon's parentage
Rhaegar and Lyanna - The most popular and most often hinted at though vaguely.
Mad King Aerys and Lyanna - Some think Mad King might have raped sweet Lyanna during the tourney at Harrenhal.
Eddard and Ashara - Cersei believed it to be so and Catelyn had her doubts. A nameless Stark had apparently taken advantage of Ashara during that tourney at Harrenhal. (Then again, "Cersei is wrong" is an axiom at this point.)
Eddard and Wayla - King Robert thought it to be so (Then again he thought Joffrey was his so...)
Brandon and Ashara - Taking advantage of women was always more or a Brandon's deal than Eddard's as implied by Lady Barbrey Dustin aka Of Swords and Bloods.
Brandon and Lyanna - Nothing spices things up like a little incest apparently.
Eddard and Fishman's daughter - A rumour Davos addressed
Howland Reed and Lyanna - he seemed to have a thing for her in Jojen and Meera's story
Benjen and Ashara - he had a thing for her during the infamous Harrenhal tourney (someone must have sprinkled some aphrodisiacs there!)

Young Griff's parentage
Rhaegar and Elia - What we were told.
Lyanna and Rhaegar - Because the fandom is paranoid enough at this point to think of that one too.
Rhaegar and Ashara - Yes, we are THAT paranoid.
Aerys and Lyanna - I guess that at this point we were trying to cover all the ends.
Aerys and Ashara - He was dubbed the Rapist King.

 

[Groot]

So basically, George RR Martin could really go in any direction he wants with parentage, but i don't think he will change from his original plan.

Who would you be satisfied with for Jon and Dany's parents?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Yeah, he can go wherever he wants to go. That list is mostly us joking with it, but if you try hard enough, you'll find some way to make it work. If I still had the conversation, I'd show you the reasoning, but I don't have it and I'm far to lazy to write it out again.

Dany's parents = As canon says.
Jon's parents = I'm fine with anything that makes sense.

 

[Boaz]

The issue over Rhaegar's and Lyanna's issue is that GRRM has not spelled it out along the way. Since it's the biggest mystery of the story, we'll all accept some explanation... especially since it seems to be hidden in the text if we can just figure it out... The problem is that there are multiple mysteries... and can GRRM keep providing explanations involving minor, barely mentioned, and fogettable characters who carried out devious plans...

The parentage of Jon seems paramount. Some have called into question the parentage of Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion. Others question the legitimacy of Sansa and Arya. And is the real Jeyne Westerling pregnant? Is Robb the father? What about Robert Arryn? I don't think any believes Jon was his father. The Sand Snakes. There have been mix ups with Mance's and Craster's sons.

There are mysteries surrounding the identity of Quaithe, Ashara's death, Tyrek's disappearance, Arellas' identity, the identity of Coldhands, the origins of Varys, the motivations of Middlefinger, the whereabouts of Aurane Waters, the identity of Robert Stone, the identity of the Elder Brother, the location of Maege Mormont, what actions the Iron Bank will take now that they're allied with Stannis and Jon, and .... oh yeah... where is Howland Reed and what does he know?

And don't forget the prophecies! Who is Azor Ahai reborn? Who is TPTWP? Who are the three heads? Is there a Stallion Who Mounts The World?

How many secret backgrounds can GRRM reveal in the last two books and still make it believable?

Will the last chapter feature Howland Reed as Hercule Poirot? Will he patiently explain the possibilities involving Willem Darry (who?), uncle Gery (who?), and Lord Serry (who?) and then drop the bomb telling us that it was Varys and Lord Harys in Mantarys?

Oh, and one other problem with this theory is that not only does it depend upon making Jon six months younger than Robb, it also depends upon making Dany one year older.

My cop out is...

... GRRM never intended his readers to go crazy and pour over every little detail. He was just telling a detailed story and now his fans are holding him to them.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

It is possible Boaz, that several questions have the same answer.

Though I, for one, don't expect GRRM to wrap it all up and answer all the questions. He created this amazing universe that gives off the vibe that it existed long before he even got there. It would be a shame to wrap it all up without giving it a chance to really live on after he leaves it.

 

[Boaz]

Agreed on both points. As for the second, I do hope enigmas remain. As for the first, if multiple questions have the same answer... it might be Aerys II... he is the key to my never finished theory of everything.

 

[Deɑth.]

I personally agree with Sry on many of her points. I'm fine with Jon's parents being someone else as long as it makes sense for the reader. Of course, many people firmly believe his parents were Lyanna and Rhaegar and I would like that as well.

 

[Groot]

I just hope it makes sense in the end, i'm happy if some minor things are left unresolved, but not any major ones.

What are peoples experiences with other epic fantasy book series, did they have ending that were satisfactory and made sense?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Agreed on both points. As for the second, I do hope enigmas remain. As for the first, if multiple questions have the same answer... it might be Aerys II... he is the key to my never finished theory of everything.

Aerys II, father of 7 children representing the 7 gods of faith.

I personally agree with Sry on many of her points. I'm fine with Jon's parents being someone else as long as it makes sense for the reader. Of course, many people firmly believe his parents were Lyanna and Rhaegar and I would like that as well.

Well, it isn't like there is no reason to believe his parents are indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is simply that you must acknowledge both the hits in favour as in those to the contrary. Ultimately, Martin is telling the story in third person sympathetic POV making every bit of information he gives somewhat unreliable. He can always choose to say for either the hits in favour or the hints to the contrary to have simply been the misinformations of the character expressing them depending on the route he decides to take.

I just hope it makes sense in the end, i'm happy if some minor things are left unresolved, but not any major ones.

What are peoples experiences with other epic fantasy book series, did they have ending that were satisfactory and made sense?

I think it is safe to say that main stories will be resolved. Minor ones might not be.

Like with everything, it is a hit and miss. Some leave you satisfied and some don't and sometimes it is just a question of what the ending does for you on the objective/subjective level. Sometimes, at least in my experience, an ending can leave you both satisfied and dissatisfied due to a difference between objectively good and subjectively good. For instance, for me the ending of Harry Potter (forever epic for me because it is the book that introduced me to reading) was objectively a good ending and a wrap up of the story, while subjectively I could never get over Ronmione because to me it never made sense (not to mention Harry and Ginny). Opposite can happen too.