Copyrights/Trademarks

[Mele Kalikimaka]

This is an area of writing that I'm woefully unfamiliar with. I've had this paranoia ingrained on me that if I share anything of mine - stories, drawings, etc. - it'll get snatched away. Maybe by peers, maybe by potential publishers. But I want to learn how the system really works, not just some vague fear.

For instance, do I have to do anything to protect a manuscript before I have people look at it? And if I have a title I really like, do I apply for a trademark?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

A trademark is a word, phrase, symbol, and/or design that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others.

A copyright protects works of authorship, such as writings, music, and works of art that have been tangibly expressed. But it protects the work itself, not the title.

You can't copyright the title of a book and you can't register it as a trademark, either. If you were selling a brand of goods associated with that book: action figures, soap, popcorn, etc. then you might be able to register the name of the book as a trademark for that specific line of goods. But if you write a book and somebody else wants to use the same title, they can. (For instance, think about how long all the titles of history books and biographies would have to be if every single one of them had to have a unique title. For the most famous historical figures, the titles would end up being half a page long ... at least.) So don't even bother worrying about that. Just concentrate on writing stories so wonderful, creating drawings and other works of art so stunning, that eventually it will be your name that sells your books and art.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

do I have to do anything to protect a manuscript before I have people look at it?

That may depend on your country. In general copyright is automatic under a Geneva Convention. But even so, because it's not going to be "Patented" or a "Registered Design", you usually don't need to do anything.

Even putting (c) 2014 Mele Kalikimaka isn't absolutely needed in most countries, that's useful if setting particular terms on something published.
The USA and the UK (oddly, rather than China or Russia) are currently maybe the worst in wanting to change copyright rules (partly due to Google lobbying). Certain kinds of things in USA may need registered? But I'm unsure of current USA laws.

Related to copyright is "Registered Design" in UK. That would cover a shape of kettle or a strangely shaped book. That confusingly is called a "Design Patent" in USA (it's nothing to do with Patents).

The rules for "Trade Marks" and Company Names vary considerably from Country to Country.

If you are totally paranoid and think someone might sue you for plagiarism, then seal up USB stick, SD card or paper first draft (or even summary) and mail it to yourself, sealed by registered mail, then give it to Solicitor, bank etc to store unopened. Also never delete versions. Always make a new copy with a new name for each revision. Make backup copies, have copies with someone else, don't rely on so called Cloud backups. People have been robbed of their laptop, PC etc (more likely than fire / flood loss).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

This is an area of writing that I'm woefully unfamiliar with. I've had this paranoia ingrained on me that if I share anything of mine - stories, drawings, etc. - it'll get snatched away. Maybe by peers, maybe by potential publishers. But I want to learn how the system really works, not just some vague fear.

For instance, do I have to do anything to protect a manuscript before I have people look at it? And if I have a title I really like, do I apply for a trademark?

On the less legal side of things.... I don't think you have anything to fear in terms of other writers stealing your ideas. We all have our own ideas which we're pretty obsessed by. Few writers would have any interest about writing anothers' idea and world. But, also, surely you have the email that says here is my book, please advise what you think evidences that you are the owner.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've had this paranoia ingrained on me that if I share anything of mine - stories, drawings, etc. - it'll get snatched away

I think this is potentially normal at the early stages of creation - the wonder of being immersed in ideas, a sense of them being unique, and a fear that they can be taken from you. I remember going through it, once.

As springs says, though, anyone already seeking publishing is already pushing their own work, and has no interest in copying someone else's. Additionally, agents and editors have good industry reputations for a reason, and any sign of paranoia in submissions can be interpretated as lack of trust and/or maturity, and therefore rejected.

However, use common sense and don't just put your entire body of work online where anyone can access it, unless you are actively trying to give it away. I insist on only the first 1500 words for a piece published to Critiques not so much to prevent theft, but to prevent Digital Rights being compromised.

And here's the hard, unadulterated truth - none of your ideas will be unique. It's how you tell a story that's unique. And it will likely take years of hard work to get that storytelling to a competent level.

 

[The Judge]

Just to add to Teresa's point, it is possible to trademark some things in connection with writing even before eg selling a brand of goods with the name. For instance, the term "Discworld" is protected by a trademark, and I'm pretty sure that happened before spin-offs arrived, in order to stop other people ripping off Sir Terry's work by eg producing models/games without his consent.

And the other thing to remember is that copyright -- which vests immediately you create something -- is only as good as the legal system, and as far as your pocket, will allow. While it's highly unlikely any reputable author, agent or publisher would take your entire story and simply reproduce it, there have been court cases where it's been alleged that ideas for plots have been taken and minimally reworked, though they are rare and frankly one of the last things you need to worry about. But I do know of one case where someone lifted an entire short story from a website and entered in a competition as her own work. She was discovered, but I can't believe she is the only one to have done this. More to the point, there are a great many people out there who don't actually agree with the idea of copyright and believe everyone should have untrammelled access and therefore use of everything else, so regard anything on the web as fair game. They are more likely to target pictures/images than writing, but unfortunately there is very little you can do about them.

So if you're putting up whole short stories or images on a website, be aware that someone might take and use them, but frankly if they do, you've lost nothing, and certainly not financially, so it's really not worth worrying about. As to longer works, only put up short excerpts, as Brian says.

Anyway, this isn't really a Publishing matter, so I'll move it across to General Writing Discussion.

 

[Avid Scifi Fan]

I know the USA has and online process for submitting works (in electronic format) for copywright. It only costs about $35. I think its a little more for a physical copy.

I believe you are automatically covered under the US law for your work and don't need to formally submit (but I'm not a lawyer or legal expert).

 

[Venusian Broon]

I know the USA has and online process for submitting works (in electronic format) for copywright. It only costs about $35. I think its a little more for a physical copy.

??? I thought that you had copyright from the moment your original work was written, like magic - for free (assuming you hadn't violate any other existing copyright in the process, I assume). Giving some money to another party seems a right proper con.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

many people out there who don't actually agree with the idea of copyright

Yes. Only use Creative Commons (CC) or any of the so called "copyleft" software licences if essentially you want a work in the Public Domain. They are all seriously watered down Copyright. I have no objection to someone releasing their work under CC, GPL, GPL2, BSD Free etc or Public Domain as long they understand and agree with the agenda.
Also on the other hand it seems unreasonable that Corporations should be renewing copyright with the original creators dead or getting nothing.

I do believe in reasonable duration of copyright and I don't agree with Websites that have small print that all your contributions are 'creative commons' by default without properly explaining it. Don't upload to Wikipedia, Flickr, Pinterest etc unless you want to give the content away.

 

[The Judge]

You're right, VB, that copyright vests immediately, as I said. But I recall reading (can't recall where, of course...) that it can only be enforced in the US if it's registered somewhere. Whether this is the place ASF refers to, I don't know.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I thought that you had copyright from the moment your original work was written

That's the Geneva convention. But UK and USA are working to change it that you should have to register or else it's an Orphan Work that Big Corporations (Google, BBC, Murdoch, Apple etc) can make money out of.

Shame on them.

 

[Venusian Broon]

You're right, VB, that copyright vests immediately, as I said. But I recall reading (can't recall where, of course...) that it can only be enforced in the US if it's registered somewhere. Whether this is the place ASF refers to, I don't know.

I can understand that if, by some reason that your work is stolen before it is published and then gets published by someone else, then it might be useful to have official proof of some sort, say, by registering it. But then what if my thief registers my work as his own before I do?* Aren't we back at the same point again? Do I have to contest that. (No need to answer that, I'm just in a Saturday afternoon confused mindfog - I'll look up t'interweb.)

@Ray - yeah for that very reason I am loathe to use any service by any of these big companies when it comes to my content - even it is merely cloud storage and backup - I haven't gone through and spotted it in their small print, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are clauses already there that state the various rights that the companies have over the data that you put in their care, that they can use to exploit to make cash.

EDIT - ok, looking it up. In the US if you want to sue someone over copyright infringement then you have to register it. And from my reading this is a process that takes place after publishing usually. But, (from this article: https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/sto...ism/your-copyrights-online/3-copyright-myths/).

"...if you aren’t planning on suing anyone, the registration process itself is a waste. You can still file DMCA notices, send cease and desist letters and demand licensing for your work."

I also spotted a UK copyright registering firm, £39.50/£65 for five and ten years respectively in their register. Then £29/£54 for each 5/10 year renewal. So does seem legit. Way OTT for a first time SF novelist I think, so I'll give it a miss

--------------------
* So unlikely as to be on par with a shoal of mackerel spontaneously falling out of the blue sky, but for the sake of the argument...

 

[The Judge]

I can understand that if, by some reason that your work is stolen before it is published and then gets published by someone else, then it might be useful to have official proof of some sort, say, by registering it. But then what if my thief registers my work as his own before I do? Aren't we back at the same point again? Do I have to contest that.

As I understand it, the registration isn't proof of ownership of copyright,** it merely allows for enforcement of your own rights. You prove your right in court in the usual way when suing the thief for breach of copyright, but you can't actually start the action in a US court (for a US book, anyway) unless and until you have registered.

Registration also apparently brings with additional advantages. From the US Copyright Office website http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#automatic

Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:
• Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
• Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U.S. origin.
• If made before or within five years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.
• If registration is made within three months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney’s fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.
• Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U.S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies.

** this issue is dealt with in the third bullet point -- registration provides prima facie evidence of ownership, ie accepted as such until proved otherwise, but that can be overturned by real evidence, ie the email sending it to your beta readers pre-dates anything the thief has.


So, always keep dates of starting and finishing work, and keep backups of different versions etc, which will help show you wrote it and when.

 

[Avid Scifi Fan]

Either way, why take the chance.

Getting your work registered with the official government agency seems well worth it in the event you have something that someone tries to steal. Hind sight is always twenty twenty.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I also spotted a UK copyright registering firm, £39.50/£65 for five and ten years respectively in their register. Then £29/£54 for each 5/10 year renewal. So does seem legit. Way OTT for a first time SF novelist I think, so I'll give it a miss

If I were in the UK I'd check to make sure that it is legitimate before using it, because it's very expensive compared to registering a US copyright, and in the US you don't have to keep renewing it. I would be surprised if it was that different in the UK.

But if your book is published, the publisher usually takes care of registering the copyright in your name (and paying the fee). Of course, if it's self-published, you are on your own. If it's published by a small press, you should look at your contract to make sure they promise to do it for you.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I think there is no such thing yet in UK. Only Trademark and Registered Design. But the UK Government wants to introduce it.

 

[The Judge]

I didn't see you'd edited your original post before I'd finished my earlier one, VB, so I missed the extra bits:

I also spotted a UK copyright registering firm, £39.50/£65 for five and ten years respectively in their register. Then £29/£54 for each 5/10 year renewal. So does seem legit. Way OTT for a first time SF novelist I think, so I'll give it a miss

Um... I really think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

The US registration is legit and registration brings some advantages, and is necessary if you intend to sue. This UK firm may be a legitimate business, I don't know what you've seen and what they promise to provide so I can't comment further (but if you want to give the details I'll have a look), but registering with them would be a total waste of money.

If you want to sue in the US, then register direct with the US Copyright Office and pay their fee direct. If you want to sue in the UK -- well, in England and Wales, but I'd be gobsmacked if it were different in NI or Scotland -- there's absolutely no point having any kind of registration anywhere, save as corroborative evidence of the time of completion of the m/s.

The two jurisdictions are wholly different and it's important not to confuse them.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I noticed, when I was reading through the FAQ at the US Copyright Office that the whole "poor man's copyright" where you send yourself a copy of the work has no legal standing if you want to sue. I imagine that giving your lawyer a copy is the same. You may prove your ownership that way, but it's not going to allow you to file a lawsuit. "Poor man's copyright" looks to be mythical. And, for that matter, not that cheap, since mailing hardcopy can be pretty expensive. So if you are putting out money anyway, you might as well kick in the registration fee (in the US $55) as well and be completely covered.

If you want to sue in the UK -- well, in England and Wales, but I'd be gobsmacked if it were different in NI or Scotland -- there's absolutely no point having any kind of registration anywhere, save as corroborative evidence of the time of completion of the m/s.

In which case, paying them every five to ten years sounds like a scam since you should only have to prove the time of completion once.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

"poor man's copyright" where you send yourself a copy of the work has no legal standing if you want to sue

Perhaps in the USA. Elsewhere varies.

 

[The Judge]

In which case, paying them every five to ten years sounds like a scam since you should only have to prove the time of completion once.

Not a scam as such, in the sense of out-and-out dishonesty she says quickly, thinking of libel actions... I imagine -- without having seen their site -- that what they promise to do is to hold the paperwork for the 5 or 10 years you contract for, but at the end of that time the paperwork is dumped, so the repeat fee pays for them to keep your name on their books/hold the m/s for another term of 5/10 years, so if in that further period you want to sue, or indeed are sued, they can provide the necessary evidence on the form of their records. (A bit like paying for a safety deposit box at the bank.)

Since you would be getting exactly what you pay for, that's a legitimate business. The fact that the original registration, let alone the extension, is a complete waste of money in England which no one should even contemplate using, is neither here nor there in legal terms.

"poor man's copyright" where you send yourself a copy of the work has no legal standing if you want to sue.

Perhaps in the USA. Elsewhere varies.

Just to clarify, everything to do with the need for copyright registration that we're discussing here only applies to the US. (I've no idea if registration is required anywhere else in the world.)

Teresa is perfectly right in that having the m/s in the sealed envelope will not allow you to sue for breach of copyright in a US court regarding copyright in a US book. You have to register with the USCO to do that. That's nothing to do with the question of using the m/s+sealed envelope as evidence of actual copyright ownership. It can still be evidence, both in the US and elsewhere, if needed.

In jurisdictions such as England and Wales where no registration is required, legal claims can be started without any supporting paperwork whatsoever (not that I'd recommend that!).