The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco

Vertigo

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I was really very disappointed by The Name of the Rose, I somehow expected so much more from a book that has received such critical acclaim. To be fair there is a good story in there, a very good story even, it’s just a little hard to find in amongst all the excess waffle and self-aggrandising tosh. In fairness it is very possible that some, at least, of my complaints may be down to the translator (one William Weaver) rather than Eco himself but certainly not all of it. This book doesn’t seem to know what it wants to be: medieval docudrama, religious docudrama, murder mystery, philosophical debate, or maybe a set text for a Latin student.

Bearing in mind that this book was first published in 1980, it is pretentious in the extreme. There are extensive passages in Latin; just how many potential readers in 1980 would have stood any chance of reading those Latin passages? Of course it does endear it to the literary academics who love to demonstrate just how smart and well educated they are. Even the English text was a problem, constantly using archaic words long since gone out of use that were not even to be found in my Collins dictionary and necessitated constant googling until I got fed up with it (life’s too short) and I started guessing their meaning from context instead! “Oh, but,” I hear you say “that increases the realism and atmosphere; it is set in medieval times after all!” However this isn’t realism; realism would have required the whole thing to have been written in Latin. Latin would have been the lingua franca of the day, especially in a monastery and particularly when involving monks taken from all over Europe, so using archaic English words is not realistic, it’s just confusing for the average reader.

This is a long book – 500 pages in my edition – that could have been reduced by at least two thirds without detracting in any way from the plot or, more importantly for an historical fiction like this, any loss of medieval atmosphere. It is not necessary to describe every bit of doubtless well researched minutiae in order to create such an atmosphere (for example six pages of exposition to describe the sculpture over the church door that advanced the story not one iota). Although it does of course demonstrate most eloquently just how much dedicated research Signor Eco has put in and the VERY extensive philosophical passages demonstrate what a marvellous semiotician he is, though this time not so eloquently; at least I found them neither clear nor persuasive. In fact so much detail eventually bores and consequently achieves the opposite by destroying any atmosphere that might otherwise have been achieved.

Now, please don’t get me wrong; I am interested in the details of medieval life and am in fact currently reading a non-fiction book on medieval life in a city. The problem is that in a non-fiction book such details can be presented in an interesting manner not really available to a writer of fiction, particularly historic fiction. In the novel such levels of detail just get in the way of the story being told. I confess that by the end of the book I was skimming long passages until something actually starts happening again. Incidentally I am also currently reading a novel set, admittedly, a few centuries later which manages very effectively to create the atmosphere of its period (17th century) using the structure of sentences far more than the use of obscure archaic words.

All very sad really since, as I’ve already said, there is a very good story tucked away in there; it just required unreasonable amounts of dedication to extract it.
 
It's years now since I read it. The edition I've got is a hardback from 1984 -- also the Weaver translation, and also 500 pages -- and it probably would have been around then, as I'm sure I'd read it before I saw the film. But although I well remember with some horror the very lengthy description of the tympanum -- which I rather skipped, and which I also agree could have been dropped with no loss -- I actually enjoyed the book. The Latin would have foxed me for the most part, especially as when I read it I wouldn't have been able to Google anything, so I no doubt just skipped that, too, but can't recall being baffled by any archaic words, so either I also skipped them, or my vocabulary of medieval terms is bigger than yours! :p

As for it being rather verbose, with all the philosophical debating, I put that down to the fact it was a genuine literary novel (whatever one of those might be) -- and a foreign literary novel, at that! -- not simply an historical whodunnit in the mould of Brother Cadfael (and I'd read and re-read all the BC books and loved them) so I just rolled with it. Mind, at about that time I was reading a fair few novels of that kind, as one of the secretaries where I worked read all the Booker Prize nominees every year, and I borrowed a load from her. Whether I'd be so tolerant nowadays, I'm not so sure. I might give it another go and find out!
 
@Vertigo
Have you read other Umberto Eco books?
I couldn't finish Foucault's Pendulum.

I actually quite liked "The Name of the Rose" (also the film subsequently), so the other disappointing. I can only manage a very little Latin, I don't remember it being an issue. I probably know more French. Both Villette and the Professor (Charlotte Bronte) had more French than I could cope with, but I enjoyed them anyway.

Jostien Gaarder reminds me a little of him. I enjoyed "Sophie's World" (later the film with Subtitles). But Maya and The Solitaire Mystery disappointing.
 
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Whether I'd be so tolerant nowadays, I'm not so sure. I might give it another go and find out!

I did quite enjoy Name of the Rose when I read it at university shortly after seeing the film. But I also enjoyed Foucault's Pendulum not longer after (twice) only to be appalled by it when I tried to reread it recently. So I assume I wouldn't get on with NOTR if I tried it again. (I've watched the film many times, though.)
 
I expect your medieval vocabulary is far better than mine Judge! My vocabulary has always been dire at the best of times. However it was my inability to look them up in my ereader dictionary (Collins) that made me feel slightly less of a dunce. Actually on some occasions the problem was that the word might not even have been English. For example this phrase appears "...Emperor Hadrian, man of lofty behavior and of naturaliter Christian spirit..." where, as far as I can tell, naturaliter is simply Latin for naturally. Does it really help to insert words like that?

Also, the large passages of Latin I was happy enough to live without, but it was the shorter passages similar to the example above that annoyed me most. Here's another example: "...little by little the man who depicts monsters and portents of nature to reveal the things of God per speculum et in aenigmate, comes to enjoy..." And that just leaves scratching my head not to mention annoyed and that just draws me out of the story.

I understand your comment about it being a literary work but, whilst I'm not that well read, I have read a fair number of translated 'literary' works now and none have given me as much trouble as this one.

@Ray McCarthy: I've not read any other by Eco and I must confess I'm not encouraged to do so! This one had just been on my list for a very long time.
 
The concept of Foucault's Pendulum is brilliant, in my opinion, which was why I read it twice: the second time was so I could enjoy the whole thing with the knowledge of what it was about (and also because not all of it had made sense the first time round). If you're interested in occultism and occultists, and especially the Knights Templar, I can't think of a better novel, as long as you're prepared to do a bit of work. It's just that having grappled through it twice, I didn't think I'd get enough extra out of it to do so a third time.
 
Well I shall maybe keep half an eye open for it. I had always had TNOTR in mind after I saw the film many years ago and then went for it after finding it in a charity shop. So maybe if I see FP I might just pick it up!
 
Actually, I quite like the odd word or two of Latin shoved in a sentence, perhaps because I can usually take a guess at the meaning. I dare say I wouldn't be so tolerant of odd words of eg Greek or Bulgarian which I'd have no hope in hell of understanding, so I can understand where you're coming from, Vertigo. (Though actually I imagine your Latin is better than mine!) I think also that I didn't read it as a book to be immersed in, if that makes sense, so I didn't suffer from being pulled out of it again with bits I didn't understand. I'm not saying I read it as a text book, but I was happy to stay at a little distance from it.

I've never tried Foucult's Pendulum, as I thought that would be too difficult! Since HB is recommending it, I might have a go.
 
Well my Latin left a lot to be desired; they made me retake my Latin O level three times before I passed (just). It was a Benedictine monastery though so they were very keen on Latin!!! Actually comparison between my own experiences at school in a Benedictine monastery and those of the book was one of the more enjoyable aspects of the book for me!
 
At least you were allowed to take it at "O"-level -- I was shunted aside into Classical Studies!

At some point, you know, we shall have to demand a full account of Vertigo's Life in a Benedictine Monastery School. A few scenes with the cane, some egregious sex scenes, a sprinkling of Latin and Greek, and we'd have a bestseller on our hands!
 
If you're interested in occultism and occultists,
But I'm not. Perhaps that's the problem.
I only did 3 years Latin, 5 years French and 1 "year" German.
There was indeed many people with canes. Or 1m rules. Or pulling up to the Front by the ear or hair. The place was trying to hold on to Public School traditions. They ASSURED us that the rules section in the School Diary was a misprint.
"While the School does not generally practice Capital punishment, it will be administered when the occasion demands it"
Or some such.
The Divinity Teacher insisted they really meant Corporal punishment.
But since Corporal punishment could easily be encountered by the same pupil several times a day, I wasn't convinced. One teacher didn't bother with canes, rulers, twisting ears and dragging etc. He would just punch people on the chest.

Sexual Abuse? Never heard of the Teachers doing it. Some of the older boys though had to be avoided. I'm glad it was no longer a Boarding School then.

I don't remember anyone disappearing though. They said those three where expelled for drugs.
 
Foucault's Pendulum

Foucault's Pendulum is one I abandoned as well.

I liked the re-recreation of a form of mediaeval mindset - specifically, the idea that the world was centered around Jerusalem, as per the older mediaeval maps.

But I would echo the same frustrations as Vertigo with this book - a lot of talking and not much happening.
 
At least you were allowed to take it at "O"-level -- I was shunted aside into Classical Studies!

At some point, you know, we shall have to demand a full account of Vertigo's Life in a Benedictine Monastery School. A few scenes with the cane, some egregious sex scenes, a sprinkling of Latin and Greek, and we'd have a bestseller on our hands!
Allowed?? We had no choice - absolutely mandatory for everyone. I don't think Benedictines considered you literate unless you could speak Latin fluently! I distinctly remember having to read the Latin classics like the Aeneid (or at least try to). Put me off the classics for (almost) life, I've only started looking at them again most recently.

And don't get me started... I mean really. It was and still is a boarding school and was very traditional. The sixth form prefects could still give you the cane. If, as a junior, you were going down a corridor and there was a senior coming the other way, you turned around and went back; you simply didn't pass a senior in any kind of narrow corridor. There was still an element of fagging with juniors given the duty of cleaning the seniors rooms. However I never came across even rumours of sexual abuse whilst I was there... sorry!!!

The real Tom Brown's Schooldays only appeared after I left and went to a place called Welbeck College, an army sixth form college, and that was much closer to the old traditions. But, sorry, still no sexual abuse going on! :p
 

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