Breaking the rules doesn't get it done...

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Reading this great article over on io9 and I can't help but relate it to writing.

One relevant passage is:

'What separates the quack and the genius is that we still remember the geniuses three centuries later. It's called survivorship bias, and it's seen across all disciplines. For every popular singer who "just believed" in him or herself, there are at least a hundred whose belief didn't boost them into stardom.'

To me, this passage is talking directly to those who refuse to believe in the importance of luck. Sure, you hear all the success stories of people who just wouldn't give up, but you don't hear about the thousand times as many failure stories of the people still struggling but not making it.

There's a lot of other useful info there, too. It's well worth the read.
 
Hi,

Not so fast I think for the writer. We also remember failures centuries later. Consider Lords Raglan and Cardigan responsible for the charge of the light brigade, a classic military blunder. Or George - there's just a few indians over that hill - Custer.

Cheers, Greg.
 
True, we remember the spectacular and public blunders, but we don't remember the myriad other less spectacular or private blunders.

We have the spectacular successes and a few spectacular failures decades later, but the failures slip by. In the context of publishing, we remember Hemingway and Shakespeare, but not many of their unsuccessful contemporaries. A book that's terrible isn't generally published. A book that someone thought was good is. If that book then goes on to sell only a few copies it's largely forgotten. If it sells out it's print run but doesn't warrant a reprint, it's largely forgotten. It's only those books that stay in print over long periods of time, or are often reprinted, that we have from more than ten years ago. Leading to the survivorship bias mentioned in the article.

ETA: You have four groups.

Spectacular success. Remembered.

Success. Remembered.

Failure. Forgotten.

Spectacular failure. Some remembered, some forgotten.

Result is we remember the successes and only some failures, leading to survivorship bias.
 
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Voltaire said that God is not on the side of the big battalions but on the side of those who shoot best.

Luck plays its part but hard work, training and learning are just as important as self-belief in writing or any other discipline. None of it will eliminate failure but it may increase the chances of success.

All you can do is keep your head to the grindstone and (maybe) the harder you work, the luckier you get;)
 
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Sure, you hear all the success stories of people who just wouldn't give up, but you don't hear about the thousand times as many failure stories of the people still struggling but not making it.

Luck is the presentation of an opportunity - it still requires hard work to succeed in anything, by building on those opportunities. There are no free rides.
 
'What separates the quack and the genius is that we still remember the geniuses three centuries later. It's called survivorship bias, and it's seen across all disciplines. For every popular singer who "just believed" in him or herself, there are at least a hundred whose belief didn't boost them into stardom.'
But belief in oneself doesn't equate to either talent or hard work, so is pretty irrelevant to any argument about luck. Indeed, luck being abstract and likely to fall on the untalented as well as the genius, one would expect to have the talentless making good as often as the talented, and since in numerical terms there are likely to be very many more of the former than the latter, the it's-only-luck argument should mean many more of the talentless propelled to everlasting fame and fortune.
 
Also, the same can be true of any career. I think there's a real danger of making writing seem esoteric and some sort of rule breaking career. When I set up my consultancy, I got lucky. A lecturer I knew had an accident (it wasn't the nice kind of lucky) and needed a term off and I got offered her course as a last minute replacement. Then I worked and worked to design, deliver and assess something I had little warning about. And then I did okay and they kept me on for bits and pieces of other courses.

Luck plays a part in everything we do. So does working hard. And in every walk of life there will be some git who seems blessed and who the gods rain favours on. It's not exclusive to writing, not is the other poor so and so who has rubbish luck. It is what it is.

But, as with every other career, hard work has its place. That's what gets you the skills to write, gets the blogs out where they're visible, takes you to convention after conventions, gets shorts out and novels finished. And writing that off as being lucky if success comes is a complete travesty to those who work.
 
I find it terribly odd that when I say 'luck matters' that most of the responses here take that to mean that somehow hard work doesn't. It's not either, or. You do not succeed without hard work and luck. You can work your tuchus off and still fail. The difference between two hard workers, one of whom succeeds, the other fails... is pure luck.
 
Perhaps because you don't tend to say "luck matters" as if it were only one of several factors. Whatever you might think you are saying when you repeatedly talk of luck in the writing business, you most definitely give the impression that you believe nothing else of the same importance.

And springs has already confirmed that luck -- or chance or fate or whatever you want to call it -- is an integral part of every occupation, indeed of life itself.
 
Anything to discount luck, eh, springs?

I think, as TJ just said, I did anything but discount it. I'm also very happy to have as big a dose as possible come my way. I just don't think it's everything. And I don't think it's much more important in writing than it is anywhere else. Since I'm a Sagitarian, the lucky gits of the zodiac, I'm all for it, frankly.
 
I was going to mention McGonagall as an example of a failure (in terms of writing ability):

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silv’ry Tay!
Alas! I am very sorry to say
That ninety lives have been taken away
On the last Sabbath day of 1879,
Which will be remember’d for a very long time.

’Twas about seven o’clock at night,
And the wind it blew with all its might,
And the rain came pouring down,
And the dark clouds seem’d to frown,
And the Demon of the air seem’d to say-
“I’ll blow down the Bridge of Tay.”
 
Perhaps because you don't tend to say "luck matters" as if it were only one of several factors. Whatever you might think you are saying when you repeatedly talk of luck in the writing business, you most definitely give the impression that you believe nothing else of the same importance.

You would be wrong. And actually reading the few posts I've made about the topic would show you that.

And springs has already confirmed that luck -- or chance or fate or whatever you want to call it -- is an integral part of every occupation, indeed of life itself.

Funny that her mention of luck is acknowledged whilst my mentions of hard work are not.
 
Guys, this is not going to end well. Can we stop it now?

Let's agree that hard work, talent and luck are all components of success and that what we're disagreeing about is the relative importance of the three.
 
In writing, most of the books that fail do so because they're somewhere between stunningly mediocre and perfectly wretched. That's because most of the books that people write are somewhere between stunningly mediocre and perfectly wretched. Luck is going to go to those of a higher quality than that, but unfortunately, not to all the good books that are written.

Say what you will about how bad some books are and yet have gone on to huge success, the prose might be plodding, the plots improbable, and so on and so forth, but they all delivered something that a great many readers wanted very much. They were very good indeed at something and passable at some other things (even if they were rather poor at practically everything else) and people who don't like them would be far less conscious of their failings and more generous in evaluating their strengths if they had only modest sales. (And that's not envy that makes us unwilling to acknowledge whatever such a writer does well. Or only a little bit of it's envy. It's also a huge frustration that not enough of the books we admire and enjoy are getting the recognition they deserve.) That they were so enormously successful is no doubt because of luck, and hype, and the right people noticing and spreading the word, and a lot of other factors not related to the quality of the writing. Maybe the writer got lucky delivering that something at just the right moment when readers were craving it. Timing is important. And sometimes timing is just luck, pure and simple. But sometimes it's about being canny enough to know what readers are looking for and can't get enough of to satisfy them. Meanwhile, excellent books may fail because the timing is against them. (And yet may be discovered later in the writer's life time, or after the writer is dead, when the timing is right. Or that may never happen, and they will sink into undeserved obscurity.)

Sometimes what a book has that gives it that big push is originality, just at the time that readers are looking for something fresh (they aren't always). But breaking the rules does not always lead to originality -- as so many novice writers think -- in fact, I believe it rarely does, because a lot of the books that fail are breaking the rules in exactly the same way. And then even if the writer does attain true originality, the book may be (as Samuel Johnson once allegedly wrote) "both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good."

As for hard work, more than likely it is going to improve your writing, and the longer you keep working hard the better your writing will be, thereby increasing your chances of being in the right place at the right time for luck to work in your favor. Persistence, is very, very important. If you write more than one very good book, then you increase your chances that one of them will grab the public's fancy. And that increases the chances that readers will suddenly have a burning interest in your books that didn't do well before. (Or at least that those books will be lauded after your death -- cold comfort, I know.)

But I've known writers who work very hard and still ... well, their writing isn't good and it's not improving. They seem to be incapable of absorbing the lessons that the rest of us learn. Maybe someday they'll have an epiphany and suddenly they will understand a great many things they are incapable of understanding now. That's not impossible. We all have smaller epiphanies along the way. That's part of how we all improve. And if they have that greater epiphany and become a great deal better (but perhaps still not outstandingly good), they may get lucky and write a book with enough of the something that a lot of readers are looking for at the time. But perhaps they will never have that moment where all becomes clear, and continue to work, and never get better at all. In which case, they'll never get that lucky break that only comes to those whose writing rises above a certain level.

So even hard work is no guarantee, if there is no talent at all. No book succeeds by virtue of one factor only: hard work, talent, originality, timing, luck, being canny about what people want, hype, etc. You need a combination, not of all of them, but more than one or two. But the only one you can absolutely control is how much work you do.
 
Very many people like more of the same. It's a lower risk of time / or money.
Perhaps that's why there are so many Pern books :)

No book succeeds by virtue of one factor only: hard work, talent, originality, timing, luck, being canny about what people want, hype, etc. You need a combination, not of all of them, but more than one or two. But the only one you can absolutely control is how much work you do.

So much agree. This applies to programming, starting a business etc.
Lots of of people mistakenly think an original invention or idea is the route to business success. Maybe it's 10%.

I wish I'd made more effort to write and learn about writing 30 years ago.
 

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