Is Tolkien still relevant?

[svalbard]

At the moment I am training to run my local Marathon. Last night over the course of a 20k run myself and my running partner had a discussion on the relevancy of Tolkien in terms of Fantasy writing at the moment.

I will nail my colours to the mast and say that, apart from The Fellowship of the Ring, his works have dated quite badly. This was a difficult conclusion to arrive at as Tolkien was a staple of my youth, a time when all new authors in the Fantasy genre were compared to the great man himself, or claims were made for them that they were the new 'Tolkien'.

Now he rarely gets a mention. New authors are tagged as the next 'Martin', 'Erikson', 'Jordan', etc.

Tolkien's influence on the likes of Jordan, Martin and Williams is evidant. But I would argue their work, including the likes of Erikson, Bakker, Lawerance, Abercrombie has something more going for it than Tolkien's. Depth of character, more nuanced storytelling, less wooden dialogue, more female characters who are not just ornaments to name just a few.

Thoughts?

 

[hitmouse]

Relevant to what?
Tolkein does still get mentioned all the time. It might not be the most modern fantasy out there, and there are some well reasoned arguments against aspects of Tolkein's work, but Tolkein is still pretty central to much discussion about fantasy, quite apart from the fact that LOTR is jst about the most popular work of fiction from the 20th century.

 

[Connavar]

I was few weeks ago at dinner party with the youth group of my local temperance movement, they are kids between 18-24 and some i know because of Uni studies and i was surprised by the fact there was alot of discussion of detailed info about Tolkien books like Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit. Seemed like The Hobbit was like a children classics everyone reads somehow.

Im not talking rabid epic fantasy fans either. Its people who have read Tolkien because the books are so popular generation after generation.

Most of those mainstream non-fantasy Tolkien readers dont know who Eriksen,Jordan are and they didnt know who Martin was until HBO series......

 

[HareBrain]

I'm afraid I find Tolkien somewhat less satisfying to read these days too. However, I'm not sure he's less relevant. I wouldn't mind betting that a great many fantasy writers will continue to be inspired by reading Tolkien in their youth, even if they perhaps learn more from the likes of Martin.

And it's possible that what Tolkien has to say about beauty and its passing might become more relevant as we continue to trash the planet. I can't see that Martin has anything important to say about the world at all (much as I enjoy his books) apart from some fairly commonplace points about power which have been made better by others.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

relevancy of Tolkien in terms of Fantasy writing at the moment.

Relevant to what?

LOTR was always a bit of an outlier, and it wasn't "modern" then. Actually it was deliberately un-modern! He wasn't really a fiction writer at all, in a sense, but an academic. LOTR is almost an exercise in distillation of Celtic, Norse, Germanic and pre-Anglo-saxon myth to achieve a "what might have been" pre-Anglo Saxon British mythos.

Hobbit is a children's book.

The other fantasy works are mostly Christopher's shuffling of J.R.R.'s World building / background material. What ever it was in 1950s and 1960s that Tolkien's fantasy was "relevant" to probably hasn't changed. There will always be a new generation of teenagers and young adults to discover it. It was by no means as popular or well known in late 1960s as it is today.

I can't see that Martin has anything important to say about the world at all

He says nothing at all. Its gritty violence and abusive sex looks back to Howard's heroes rather than Tolkien. It's mass market. Fantasy equivalent of Clive Cussler.

People will be reading LOTR and Hobbit when G.R.R. Martin and Jordan's Wheel of Time are forgotten.

 

[svalbard]

That is an interesting point about beauty and it's passing, Harebrain. I would agree there is certain poigancy in his writing about the fading of the past for a more modern world.

I think the relevancy is in can writers of fantasy find anything of worth in Tolkien today. His world building is a definite possitive, but can the same be said of his writing style and character building.

I also take your points on board about Tolkien, Ray and agree with them, not too sure about the Martin one though.

 

[J Riff]

Siggh* well maybe not so much for his writing anymore.... the LOTR is everywhere, in every thrift shop. There was an extra copy sitting downstairs for the longest time. Then the neighbour swiped it - and used it to prop up the window so his cat could get in and out. So.... *

 

[Ray McCarthy]

not too sure about the Martin one though.

Time will tell, but I won't be around

 

[Connavar]

Relevant to what?

LOTR was always a bit of an outlier, and it wasn't "modern" then. Actually it was deliberately un-modern! He wasn't really a fiction writer at all, in a sense, but an academic. LOTR is almost an exercise in distillation of Celtic, Norse, Germanic and pre-Anglo-saxon myth to achieve a "what might have been" pre-Anglo Saxon British mythos.

Hobbit is a children's book.

The other fantasy works are mostly Christopher's shuffling of J.R.R.'s World building / background material. What ever it was in 1950s and 1960s that Tolkien's fantasy was "relevant" to probably hasn't changed. There will always be a new generation of teenagers and young adults to discover it. It was by no means as popular or well known in late 1960s as it is today.


He says nothing at all. Its gritty violence and abusive sex looks back to Howard's heroes rather than Tolkien. It's mass market. Fantasy equivalent of Clive Cussler.

People will be reading LOTR and Hobbit when G.R.R. Martin and Jordan's Wheel of Time are forgotten.

Martin might write in similar subgenre to Howard but a master of action,hardcore heroes like Howard should not be compared to Martin. Abusive sex? Not alot of sex in the classic Sword and sorcery of Howard. Sure half naked men, women but not alot abusive sex, rape etc

Howard would be forgotten today if he was that simple. Im not a fan of Tolkien but i have huge respect for him for his place in creating modern fantasy just like Howard did for heroic fantasy.

 

[MWagner]

I doubt Tolkien will ever be eclipsed in popularity. That alone means he will remain a touchstone for readers, and writers all start as readers.

As for influence, I take it you mean stylistically? I would agree that Tolkien isn't nearly as influential today as he was even 20 years ago. Yes, elves and dwarves and orcs and quests are so deeply entrenched in pop culture that they're not to go away anytime soon. They still dominate video games, and video games aren't going away. But it looks like writing the next Lord of the Rings, or mimicking Tolkien's quasi-epic tone, isn't on the agenda of many writers today. And I don't know how many writers in the future would be able to pull it off even if they wanted to, given the dramatic difference in education and backgrounds they'll bring to their work.

Fantasy has become such a big tent that's it's hard to say what the main influences are today. Splatter-horror, comics, historical fiction, romance, television series? I'd go as far as to say I don't know that the written word itself is even the primary influence of a lot of writers today. Look at Joe Abercrombie - his main influences seem to be popular movies.

 

[Extollager]

A lot is being published on Tolkien these days, and from what I can tell, much of it is pretty good or better. The journal Tolkien Studies is a well-established journal, and an online-only Tolkien journal has also begun:

http://scholar.valpo.edu/journaloftolkienresearch/

That's for the academic side. He's clearly relevant there.

Obviously the six Jackson movies will be bringing Tolkien's name (if, sometimes, little from his writing) to people's attention. So in terms of pop entertainment, he is relevant.

As regards Tolkien imitations, which seems to be what this thread is largely dealing with, much more imitable fantasy series are abundant now, so lots of people may write vaguely "Tolkienian" fantasy who never read Tolkien but have experienced faint, distorted echoes of his work in others' books.

I myself think that there will be few works of fantasy indeed that have anything like the richness of Tolkien's own, because nobody gets the kind of education Tolkien had and no one now grows up in a culture close to his. Tolkien was steeped in language and he saw a British countryside with significant vestiges of, and connections to, old ways; I take it that the door is pretty firmly shut on that world now, and cars rush by the door in tarmac with sodium lamps blazing alongside. I would not be surprised IF the next really interesting, rich fantasy was written by someone who was educated at home -- since modern education is so opposed to the kinds of things that, it would seem, might enable a youngster to send a taproot down the way Tolkien did. You need quite a bit of solitude, for one thing, I suppose, and, well, less noise and more green.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

hardcore heroes like Howard should not be compared to Martin. Abusive sex? Not alot of sex in the classic Sword and sorcery of Howard.

A lot for the time. See the ones added to Gutenberg. Perhaps Queen of the Black Coast. I think Howard put as much sex as was publishable then!
Howard is mostly doing shorts with a central character. Martin develops many characters and a deeper world building due to story arc over many long novels, he's not constrained in the senses that Howard was.
Much that people think of Tolkien inspired owes more in ethos to the earlier sword and sorcery, not just Howard. The Wizards, elves, dwarves and "orcs" of much fantasy have only a surface relationship to LOTR.

 

[Connavar]

A lot for the time. See the ones added to Gutenberg. Perhaps Queen of the Black Coast. I think Howard put as much sex as was publishable then!
Howard is mostly doing shorts with a central character. Martin develops many characters and a deeper world building due to story arc over many long novels, he's not constrained in the senses that Howard was.
Much that people think of Tolkien inspired owes more in ethos to the earlier sword and sorcery, not just Howard. The Wizards, elves, dwarves and "orcs" of much fantasy have only a surface relationship to LOTR.

Yeah that is given if you have read classic fantasy that was before Tolkien like Lord Dunsany and his era early fantasy wrote about elves,dwarves,wizards. Sword and sorcery or not there were other early important influences to modern fantasy other than Tolkien,Howard,Leiber etc.

I meant Martin has not many things in common with Howard type hardcore heroic fantasy as you say multi characters epic,world shattering fantasy series is the opposite of Howard. Sons of Howard, his modern versions are David Gemmell, Joe Abercrombie,Paul Kearney,Charles R.Saunders etc

 

[MWagner]

Tolkien was steeped in language and he saw a British countryside with significant vestiges of, and connections to, old ways; I take it that the door is pretty firmly shut on that world now, and cars rush by the door in tarmac with sodium lamps blazing alongside. I would not be surprised IF the next really interesting, rich fantasy was written by someone who was educated at home -- since modern education is so opposed to the kinds of things that, it would seem, might enable a youngster to send a taproot down the way Tolkien did. You need quite a bit of solitude, for one thing, I suppose, and, well, less noise and more green.

Or maybe the next really interesting, rich fantasy won't try to evoke the past at all.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I still reread the LOTR every year or so and thoroughly enjoy it. The style might be dated but if anything that adds to the atmosphere of Middle Earth.

My 18 year old daughter is currently rereading the Hobbit and LOTR and we chat about parts of it together. She mostly reads YA like Poison Study by Maria V Snyder, as well as manga and fan fiction but she still loves Tolkien.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Let's face it, nobody recently has been described as "the new Chaucer."

Life moves on.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've moved the home schooling discussion to a new thread:
https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/552204/

 

[AnyaKimlin]

Thanks Brian.

 

[hitmouse]

I myself think that there will be few works of fantasy indeed that have anything like the richness of Tolkien's own, because nobody gets the kind of education Tolkien had and no one now grows up in a culture close to his. Tolkien was steeped in language and he saw a British countryside with significant vestiges of, and connections to, old ways; I take it that the door is pretty firmly shut on that world now, and cars rush by the door in tarmac with sodium lamps blazing alongside.

I am not sure about that.

Yes there is the internet and cars and sodium lamps, and the dark satanic mills have disappeared, but the old ways and the connection to the British countryside are still there to a significant extent if one knows where to look. Get onto the B roads and the lights disappear, the phone signal disappears too, it becomes single lane, and apart form the loss of horse-and-trap, things slow down considerably. Tolkein's countryside is still present to a large extent.

I think Tolkein's scholarship was quite rarefied even in his day, and clearly he had a much greater formal academic foundation than the majority of fantasy writers. However, there are still lots of classicists at Oxford and Cambridge. English undergraduates still study Old English and use Tolkein's academic works for reference. Old Welsh is a respectable academic discipline, as is Old Norse. A friend's daughter has recently gone up to UCL to read Viking Studies.

 

[Extollager]

I think Tolkein's scholarship was quite rarefied even in his day, and clearly he had a much greater formal academic foundation than the majority of fantasy writers. However, there are still lots of classicists at Oxford and Cambridge. English undergraduates still study Old English and use Tolkein's academic works for reference. Old Welsh is a respectable academic discipline, as is Old Norse. A friend's daughter has recently gone up to UCL to read Viking Studies.

His boyhood education emphasized reading ancient literature in the original language. As an impressionable adolescent he developed in an atmosphere of ancient languages, poetry, walking, and relative quiet. Fantasists today write about heroes on horseback and they have never seen a horse. Just sayin'.