Returning Books

[dwndrgn]

I've got a friend who is also an author who publishes on Amazon. She has three different series and notices when she gets sales of book one of a series, it gets returned and then book two is purchased and then returned, etc. and Amazon does nothing as if this behavior is acceptable.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on this. To me, this is stealing and I wouldn't even consider it but I know that there are forums out there that tout this as the best new way to enjoy books for free and that since Amazon 'lets' them do it, they aren't doing anything wrong. I've also been characterized as a straight-laced, stick-in-the-mud prude too for other areas of life, so I am curious - is this an acceptable thing and I am just too old fashioned to see it so?

 

[The Judge]

I agree with you. It's shocking behaviour which is totally wrong.

It's new for books, I imagine, as it's probably only since sales online have taken off that it's been possible to "steal" in this way -- I can't believe a book shop would take back an obviously read book. But it's been going on for years with clothes -- women buying an outfit for a special occasion like a wedding, then returning it for a full refund afterwards and pretending the clothes didn't fit.

 

[biodroid]

They do have a 7 day returns policy and lots of people can read hundred of pages in a day then they return it for a refund within those days which is wrong. If you return it for a legit reason like poor formatting or the book is plain bad then so be it surely?

 

[dwndrgn]

But it's been going on for years with clothes -- women buying an outfit for a special occasion like a wedding, then returning it for a full refund afterwards and pretending the clothes didn't fit.

I have heard of this too and find it bad as well. You would think, however, that with the technology being what it is and with the company able to see that the book has been completed and the ease with which people can copy digital files (DRM notwithstanding), that they would see it happening and not allow it - to at least have some sort of return policy geared toward digital files that takes into consideration people accidentally hitting the purchase button or whatever but everything else would be 'non-refundable' just like clothing underthings.

 

[tinkerdan]

I appreciate the ability to return books within the short span, but I get a bit skeptical about the actual value of that since there is the sample feature with amazon and if I don't like the writing I usually know before I buy it. I would think that amazon would have some sort of policy if someone continually returned them.

Of course one way that you could avoid some of that is to make sure its part of amazons kindle unlimited... but that brings up a whole different issue.

 

[dwndrgn]

They do have a 7 day returns policy and lots of people can read hundred of pages in a day then they return it for a refund within those days which is wrong. If you return it for a legit reason like poor formatting or the book is plain bad then so be it surely?

I'm not sure that returning because it is bad or has poor formatting is a legitimate reason either - they have sample chapters and surely those things would be evident there.

 

[dwndrgn]

But mostly I'm discussing serial returners - people who continually purchase and return. For example, if someone returned book one of ASoIaF and then purchased book 2? Doesn't that seem just a tad bit off? Shouldn't the company selling those books guard against that sort of thing?

 

[tinkerdan]

It might be difficult to guard against that. Who is to say that book two might not be better; though I'd think only scammer would return one book of a series for poor writing and then go right on to pick up book two.

I think though by book three a red flag should go up and amazon should have a message that says that all your get out of jail free cards have been used up.

 

[HareBrain]

I know that there are forums out there that tout this as the best new way to enjoy books for free and that since Amazon 'lets' them do it, they aren't doing anything wrong.

I can't see Amazon themselves complaining -- it's the same philosophy they use to avoid paying tax.

Personally, I think it's disgusting. (And the same goes for clothes, if they've been more than tried on.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

mostly I'm discussing serial returners

I would hope that Amazon has a method to spot this and deal with it. It's an abuse of consumer protections.

 

[dwndrgn]

I would hope that Amazon has a method to spot this and deal with it. It's an abuse of consumer protections.

According to my friend, Amazon relies on the actual authors to spot and report it and then the authors still don't get paid for those returned books.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

People have always done it - we used to get books returned with notes in the margin. It's a parameter you have to allow for. Most people couldn't be bothered with the hassle so I can't see it ever being a massive thing.

 

[tinkerdan]

But with ebooks and amazon and returns there is no real hassle::

People have always done it - we used to get books returned with notes in the margin. It's a parameter you have to allow for. Most people couldn't be bothered with the hassle so I can't see it ever being a massive thing.

::You just return it with any sort of note and it's off the bill. I've someone here who constantly buys SP novels and complains that the book is terrible. I usually read the first page and they are pretty horrible so if the time limit hasn't passed I suggest they send it back. But if I get one it's after I've read the sample so I just chalk it up to experience and go on.

 

[Bick]

Well, obviously the serial 'returners' are heels. But what strikes me about this is that individual's purchases can be tracked by an author. I would have hoped the purchase of a book by a specific individual would not be made available in this way by Amazon. How does that come about?

 

[Dave]

Someone that works for Homebase told me people do it with artificial Christmas Trees too. They buy them in early December but then decide they don't like them shortly after Christmas. In restaurants, people return food that they don't like after having eaten more than half of it. However, there is a very small minority of people who do these things, and you really wouldn't want the rules changed for that small number of people and disqualify that vast majority of honest people? On the other hand, if someone takes all the books in a series and returns them all, one-by-one then that is surely clear evidence that can be used to stop them. However, as Jo says, maybe it isn't really worth the hassle of trying to prove misconduct.

 

[Glitch]

There are different rules for buying goods on-premises and off-premiss. There are also rules for made to order, perishable, CD's DVD's where the seal has been broken and a quite a list of exceptions etc...

But in essence, you can return goods bought at a distance or off-premiss in the cancellation period without giving any reason and without incurring any liability, except under certain provisions. Although the retailer doesn't have to refund the cost of delivery. You do have to get agreement from the retailer before returning the goods otherwise you can be liable for the cost of the goods.

With regards to digital content. You lose the right to return the goods once you download it. I would say if you pay for a kindle ebook but don't download it then you can get a refund within the cancellation period. If however you have downloaded it, then you forfeit your right to cancel the contract and your entitlement to a refund.

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

Supply of digital content in cancellation period
37.—(1) Under a contract for the supply of digital content not on a tangible medium, the trader must not begin supply of the digital content before the end of the cancellation period provided for in regulation 30(1), unless—

(a)the consumer has given express consent, and

(b)the consumer has acknowledged that the right to cancel the contract under regulation 29(1) will be lost.

(2) The consumer ceases to have the right to cancel such a contract under regulation 29(1) if, before the end of the cancellation period, supply of the digital content has begun after the consumer has given the consent and acknowledgement required by paragraph (1).

(3) Paragraph (4) applies where a contract is cancelled under regulation 29(1) and digital content has been supplied, not on a tangible medium, in the cancellation period.

(4) The consumer bears no cost for supply of the digital content, in full or in part, in the cancellation period, if—

(a)the consumer has not given prior express consent to the beginning of the performance of the digital content before the end of the 14-day period referred to in regulation 30,

(b)the consumer gave that consent but did not acknowledge when giving it that the right to cancel would be lost, or

(c)the trader failed to provide confirmation required by regulation 12(5) or 16(3).

 

[tinkerdan]

This seems to be the case with Amazon recently:

With regards to digital content. You lose the right to return the goods once you download it. I would say if you pay for a kindle ebook but don't download it then you can get a refund within the cancellation period. If however you have downloaded it, then you forfeit your right to cancel the contract and your entitlement to a refund.

I downloaded one of two books to I had purchased of a series that had a discounted package of 5 books. So when I purchased the package after downloading one of the books I was able to return the book I had not downloaded but was not able to return the one I had downloaded.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

if you pay for a kindle ebook but don't download

That's actually hard to do!

 

[dwndrgn]

There are different rules for buying goods on-premises and off-premiss. There are also rules for made to order, perishable, CD's DVD's where the seal has been broken and a quite a list of exceptions etc...

But in essence, you can return goods bought at a distance or off-premiss in the cancellation period without giving any reason and without incurring any liability, except under certain provisions. Although the retailer doesn't have to refund the cost of delivery. You do have to get agreement from the retailer before returning the goods otherwise you can be liable for the cost of the goods.

With regards to digital content. You lose the right to return the goods once you download it. I would say if you pay for a kindle ebook but don't download it then you can get a refund within the cancellation period. If however you have downloaded it, then you forfeit your right to cancel the contract and your entitlement to a refund.

I have absolutely no idea what that legalese is saying there, is it saying that you cannot return a digital book for a refund if you have already downloaded it? If that is what it is saying, then it definitely isn't in effect at Amazon in the US because purchasers there are allowed to return without any hassle. Where is that from?

 

[dwndrgn]

Well, obviously the serial 'returners' are heels. But what strikes me about this is that individual's purchases can be tracked by an author. I would have hoped the purchase of a book by a specific individual would not be made available in this way by Amazon. How does that come about?

They aren't identified other than in generic terms like Customer #1. The authors do not get their names or email addresses or anything like that.