Another Capitalisation Query

[Toby Frost]

Several of the characters in the WIP are members of a semi-knightly organisation called the Order of Saint Cordelia. Whenever they refer to it in full, it's capitalised. Am I right in thinking that whenever a character refers to it as just "the Order", it should still be capitalised, because it's an abbreviation of its formal title and not just a description?

However, I would refer to Doctor Jones with capitals, as it's his name, but if I described him in action, I might say "The doctor opened the door", because in this case "doctor" is describing him and not his formal title, in the same way that "criminal" is a description but not an actual title. So, if I was to say that the members of the Order of Saint Cordelia had been sent to many different places, would I say "The Order had been scattered", or would it be lower case?

Just typing this has made me confused.

 

[LittleStar]

Not sure how correct it is, but I would always write it 'the Order'. As you say with the doctor example, 'the' isn't part of the title, just alluding to the 'Order'.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

The order, I think - the same as Ma becomes my ma because it's not a direct address.

But so long as you're consistent it shouldn't be a biggy.

 

[Void]

I believe 'the order' should be fine because you're not using it as a title. Just in the same way that you would not capitalise 'the nursery rhyme' but you would 'Humpty Dumpty'.
Capitalisation can be a tricky game. What is, and what is not, correct has changed a fair amount even just in the last couple of hundred years!

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've personally treated it as a proper noun in my WIP, so have used the Order - in the same way that you would use a proper name, rather than title.

I checked up on Wikipedia for the Order of John Hospitaller, and that's the way they use it there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller

So far as I'm aware, that's how orders of knights are generally referred to in history books.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm not sure whether there's a rule about this sort of thing -- or if there is, what it states -- but I would use 'the Order' as it's a specific named thing.

 

[millymollymo]

I asked a similar question on another forum relating to job roles and titles, I believe it applies in this instance too. My answer was: If you are following the Oxford Style Manual, if it is a title it is capitalised. Is "The" part of the title of the Order, is "the" part of how the Order is referred to by the general public? Has it been adopted by the public in common use? Is there more than one "Order"?
Enough of that.
I think the best example, and probably one that actually helps you is 'the Parliament'.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I've personally treated it as a proper noun in my WIP, so have used the Order - in the same way that you would use a proper name, rather than title.

I agree with this. I see it as a proper noun as well and believe it should be capitalised. And I think you're right about the doctor example. It should only be capitalised if used in their name, because when used to describe a profession, it isn't a name or a proper noun -- it isn't a unique identity when used that way. I think.

 

[Hex]

If you use the Church as an example -- e.g. the Russian Orthodox Church -- then you capitalise when you refer to the organisation, and only use lower case if you're talking about a bricks and mortar church.

I think when you refer to "the Order" you're really just shortening the full title "the Order of Saint Cordelia" so I'd keep the capital.

oops and now I read the question properly, I see you covered all that. Personally I'd keep the capital in the context "the Order had been scattered" because (a) you're still talking about the same order, (b) "order" lower case might be confused with the giving of orders.

(much as in "the Church had been persecuted by Lenin...")

 

[Dan Jones]

I'm in agreement with Brian, having the Order capitalised feels correct, and helps to distinguish it from potentially confusing misunderstandings where you might be referring to a command. Ie "the Order was given" isn't the same as "the order was given", so the capitals help negate any confusion.

 

[Nick B]

I'd also go with the Order.

 

[tinkerdan]

In my Gregg Reference I believe this falls under : use your discretion.

It would normally call for it non-capitalized, but if you need special emphasis or attention drawn to it you might chose to capitalize.

This is typically for legal documents.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Eats Shoots and Leaves again.

In a language where there is no upper and lower case and writing is very important, how is it done?

Our Capitals come from Roman Lettering and the lower case letters from Celtic monks via Charlemagne.

 

[Tim Kinder]

I vote for capitalizing it.

Use upper case and no one can miss what you're talking about when they see the Order. However, if you don't use capitalization and should happen to accidentally use the word "order" in a different context (e.g. - put the pieces in the order shown on the scroll or you will die) then you risk, at least momentarily, confusing the reader.

 

[C. A. Mitchell]

I have another similar query: when referring to 'the university' is it lower or upper? For example, if referring to the University of BigBrainz, would you say, 'the university made a statement', or 'the University made a statement'?

I see many instances of upper, the argument being you're referring to a particular university, however surely 'the' does that for you? If referring to George Heriot's High School you don't say, I'll meet you at the School gates, do you? (Or should you?!)

Instinctively I used upper, but then I thought about it some more and decided it should actually be lower. (I have a hunch the prestige associated with university confuses the matter.) Now I've thought about it so much I don't even know how to spell universetie anymore...

Any BigBrainz able to help? I published my first book at the weekend and I'm having those nightmares where I'm questioning everything I wrote! Ah, the joys...

 

[HareBrain]

I'd say "the University made a statement", but I'd say "he went up the hill to the university", which would be equivalent to your school gates.

I'm not 100% sure why, though.

 

[C. A. Mitchell]

I'd say "the University made a statement", but I'd say "he went up the hill to the university", which would be equivalent to your school gates.

I'm not 100% sure why, though.

Subject/object maybe?

 

[chrispenycate]

Because 'the university' is a buiding, or a collection of architecture and traditions, while the 'University', the entity that can make statements and decisions, is a socially cohesive collection of dons, professors and even a few (postgraduate) students. They are not merely different organisms - they are different classes of object.

 

[HareBrain]

That'll be it.

 

[C. A. Mitchell]

Yes. Thank you!