Darth Angelus
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2012
- Messages
- 477
Ok, I have seen the prophesy of the Chosen One and its meaning discussed plenty of times on Star Wars forums, and seen it used to argue for certain viewpoints about what happened in certain scenes, especially Mace Windu’s last scene, and what could or could not have happened.
I think there is much confusion about prophesies in general, and understandably so. They are fictional concoctions that mess with people’s heads.
Let me begin by taking a bit of an outside story (sort of remote) perspective on prophesies and what they really are. Well, basically, an author with full control over their story and every aspect of it, including every character’s actions at any point, decides to make something pivotal happen at some point in the story, usually near the end. That very person then decides to put in some sort of prediction of the event, typically in vague words, at an earlier point in the narrative timeline, and call it a prophecy. He or she then makes the characters aware of this prophecy, and it may include affecting how they act, and sometimes that leads to a chain of event that makes the prophecy happen later in the timeline.
My point here is that there is no free will* involved. Not really. No matter what we pretend for the sake of getting emotionally immersed in a work of fiction, every fictional character ever created is ultimately merely a puppet of their author. Yes, I know this is a boring, technical perspective of how it is, but it is nevertheless the undeniable truth. I don’t look at fiction this way when I see movies, but for the sake of seeing prophecies for what they really are, one must be aware of it.
To put it differently, it is a way of setting up and/or heighten drama in the narrative, generally around a particular character, in a scripted chain of events. Can that sort of foreknowledge of the future exist in a way that can be reconciled with any reasonable notion of free will*? I very highly doubt it. At least I have never been able to see how the two could ever be made to fit together. In the case of this particular prophecy, if Anakin retains the ability at all times to opt not to bring balance to the Force, I don’t see how any in-universe entity without control over Anakin could know with 100% certainty that Anakin would ever choose to bring that said balance to the Force. It is made possible to ”know the future” only because the author (i.e. Lucas) is outside the narrative timeline and actually retains complete control over what ”Anakin chooses to do” at any point in the story (despite us pretending Anakin is not Lucas’s puppet for the sake of our own immersion in the story most of the time).
The existence of prophecies has therefore never truly been reconciled with free will*. And despite prophecies being common in this genre, this does cast very serious doubts on the logical soundness of such a notion, or that it could actually exist if it were not for a setup from someone on the other side of the fourth wall.
From what I can tell, prophecies are used a lot because they can be an effective way of heightening drama and quickly convey important information to the reader or viewer on who or what is important, in a work of fiction. The fact that they are common in fiction does not mean there can’t be some logical flaw, however.
To put another way, as someone wrote once elsewhere, the fulfillment of a prophecy is it proof. They also wrote that it may seem like circular logic.
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...efeat-palpatine.50011931/page-3#post-50695774
To that, I would say yes, I agree that that is how prophecies work in fiction, not only does it seem like circular logic, it most likely is, if you have any sort of skepticism. The thing is, just because there was some prediction was made earlier on and that prediction was called a ”prophecy” and then came to pass at some later stage, how is it possible to know it was a true prophecy at all points in time in between? If we ignore what we know of fiction on the other side of the fourth wall, how is it ever possible to know that it wasn’t just a lucky (or, ok, maybe qualified) guess, but instead something that was certainly always going to come true?
The truth is that I don’t really like prophecies all that much. Not even better ones (and this particular one is not among those I would consider to be among the better). I am very skeptical to the very notion of a foretelling. It comes off as a simple trick from the author, and also simple to see through. It comes off to me as an all too familiar trope, perhaps even a tired old cliché. Prophecies are not the reason I like this genre.
Still, all genres have tropes one might not like all too much, and sometimes one simply has to suspend disbelief, I guess. This would mean having to accept (on some level) prophecies existing in-universe somehow, despite any personal doubts one might have, which leads to…
From an in-universe perspective, the prophecy is a sort of foretelling about the future that is infallible, often able to exist despite (and side by side with) free will. Having suspending disbelief as mentioned above, I accept that the prophecy (or the in-universe entity that wrote/made it) is capable of foretelling with absolute certainty what will happen later, including what characters will opt to do**.
Clearly, this would entail that the in-universe entity writing/making the prophecy incredible supernatural powers of foresight. In the case of Star Wars, those powers of foresight would be required to go far beyond those of powerful Force users like Yoda who admits his own limits in ”Always in motion the future is” or Palpatine who didn’t see Vader betraying him (this is not saying Palpatine was weak when it came to his powers of foresight, just that a foresight which fails like this even once cannot be considered reliable/infallible enough to ever be making anything that could be considered a ”true prophecy”).
Can all accept that any in-universe entity (likely the Force itself, although it is not stated outright) capable of making completely certain predictions of the future clearly must somehow possess powers of foresight that eclipses even Palpatine’s? Said entity must simply not fail in foresight, ever. Not once.
So here comes the part where I severely disagree with a conclusion many have come up with regarding the meaning of this prophecy. They argue that because the prophecy states that only Anakin can bring balance to the Force (what it actually does say that Anakin will, not that only he can, and there is a subtle difference, even though in one sense of the word ”can”, only he can), and that killing Palpatine in Episode III would bring balance, others like Yoda or Mace could not possibly be strong enough to overcome Palpatine to the extent of being able to kill him. In other words, the prophecy says that Palpatine is too strong for Yoda or Mace to kill.
Well, here is the problem I see with that. A true prophecy, as I outlined above, must have been made by an entity with more or less infallible prediction powers. Such an entity shouldn’t have any problem knowing how other duels would play out. It should even be able to foresee Anakin intervening to save Palpatine from Mace’s killing blow. Therefore, I cannot see any reason that the prophecy conflict with the possibility that Mace would have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not intervened. That is, the prophecy may very well have taken into account Anakin’s intervention.
Please note that this certainly does not mean I actually believe Mace was winning the lightning battle prior to Anakin’s intervention, merely that the prophecy itself could not disprove that he was. I actually do believe Palpatine was somewhat stronger than Mace in Force powers. On the other hand, Mace had his lightsaber to help him, and that seems to enhance someone’s power at deflecting lightning beyond their level with their bare hands. Mace looked strained and Palpatine’s face melted (or he dropped his mask). Lucas said Palpatine tried to destroy Mace with lightning. At any rate, that part never came to its conclusion, because Palpatine altered his tactic by starting to pretend to be helpless. And we know the rest…
Anyway, I have no idea whether Mace would have been able to kill Palpatine if Anakin had not intervened, and it is certainly a valid interpretation of the scene that Palpatine would have emerged triumphant at that point even without Anakin’s help. All I am saying is that I see that as separate from the prophecy. If one believes that it also always has to be physically impossible for someone to defeat and kill an opponent when killing that person would falsify the prophecy, then that would mean Luke would not even have been physically able to kill Vader in Episode VI after cutting off his hand in the emperor’s throne room. It would also mean Darth Maul could not be strong enough to kill Anakin in Episode I, etc. Those examples would seem absurd.
Please also take into account that it is easy to make the mistake of equivocating on the word ”can”, and that conscious effort should be made not to do so. Again, if Anakin will bring balance to the Force, Yoda or Mace can not do so, yes, but that particular ”can” only apply to one meaning of the word, namely one that describes opportunity, or rather, what is compatible with known foreknowledge (which is what a prophecy is). It would not necessarily apply to other meanings of ”can not”.
On a similar note, consider this. Before Episode III came out, one could have said ”Obi-Wan can not kill Luke or Leia in the upcoming movie.” That would be true, in the sense that it would be incompatible with Luke and Leia remaining alive for later (chronologically, in-universe) episodes. However, would this ”can not” have meant that Obi-Wan would have been physically incapable of stabbing baby Luke or Leia to death? Of course not. That would be equivocation. It would have been physically (this is obviously leaving aside any form of ethics, too, including the Jedi code/way) very simple for Obi-Wan to murder baby Luke or Leia. So, as shown by this example, ”can” can mean very different things.
Whatever entity that made the prophecy in-universe can clearly foresee future events (otherwise the prophecy would ultimately just be a lucky guess, after all). Such an entity would know Palpatine was not going die at the point in time in Episode III, and would not require that Palpatine be beyond Yoda’s or Mace’s combat power to kill (even though again, it is certainly possible that he was). After all, why should it be any harder to foresee that than foreseeing the event which the prophecy prescribes? Foreseeing Anakin intervening to save Palpatine from Mace would not be any harder (or easier) than foreseeing Anakin intervening to save Luke from Palpatine.
* The topic about the nature of ”free will” is complex and could be argued forever of and by itself, but let me just say for now that I mean that someone with ”free will” is a sort of separate agent outside anyone else’s control.
** This may or may not include that free will* is merely an illusion in-universe. The nature of prophecies are almost always too vague to tell such specifics.
Tl;dr:
I have severe misgivings about prophecies in general, and their logical coherence. They are, or seem to be, made possible merely by the fact that the author of the story in actuality controls everything.
However, when suspending disbelief to the extent of accepting they can exist side by side with free will*, whatever in-universe entity making them must clearly have incredible powers of foresight. Such foresight would mean it could know certain things are going to happen, and certain things would not. Because of this ability of foresight, it could also know someone (like Palpatine) is not going to perish at some point (Episode III) or at a given character’s hands (like Mace), even if/when that happening would not have been physically impossible, the prophecy aside.
This is not saying that Mace actually was powerful enough to kill Palpatine (even if Anakin had not intervened), merely that a prophecy like that would have (almost) nothing to do with the relative power level of the two.
I think there is much confusion about prophesies in general, and understandably so. They are fictional concoctions that mess with people’s heads.
Let me begin by taking a bit of an outside story (sort of remote) perspective on prophesies and what they really are. Well, basically, an author with full control over their story and every aspect of it, including every character’s actions at any point, decides to make something pivotal happen at some point in the story, usually near the end. That very person then decides to put in some sort of prediction of the event, typically in vague words, at an earlier point in the narrative timeline, and call it a prophecy. He or she then makes the characters aware of this prophecy, and it may include affecting how they act, and sometimes that leads to a chain of event that makes the prophecy happen later in the timeline.
My point here is that there is no free will* involved. Not really. No matter what we pretend for the sake of getting emotionally immersed in a work of fiction, every fictional character ever created is ultimately merely a puppet of their author. Yes, I know this is a boring, technical perspective of how it is, but it is nevertheless the undeniable truth. I don’t look at fiction this way when I see movies, but for the sake of seeing prophecies for what they really are, one must be aware of it.
To put it differently, it is a way of setting up and/or heighten drama in the narrative, generally around a particular character, in a scripted chain of events. Can that sort of foreknowledge of the future exist in a way that can be reconciled with any reasonable notion of free will*? I very highly doubt it. At least I have never been able to see how the two could ever be made to fit together. In the case of this particular prophecy, if Anakin retains the ability at all times to opt not to bring balance to the Force, I don’t see how any in-universe entity without control over Anakin could know with 100% certainty that Anakin would ever choose to bring that said balance to the Force. It is made possible to ”know the future” only because the author (i.e. Lucas) is outside the narrative timeline and actually retains complete control over what ”Anakin chooses to do” at any point in the story (despite us pretending Anakin is not Lucas’s puppet for the sake of our own immersion in the story most of the time).
The existence of prophecies has therefore never truly been reconciled with free will*. And despite prophecies being common in this genre, this does cast very serious doubts on the logical soundness of such a notion, or that it could actually exist if it were not for a setup from someone on the other side of the fourth wall.
From what I can tell, prophecies are used a lot because they can be an effective way of heightening drama and quickly convey important information to the reader or viewer on who or what is important, in a work of fiction. The fact that they are common in fiction does not mean there can’t be some logical flaw, however.
To put another way, as someone wrote once elsewhere, the fulfillment of a prophecy is it proof. They also wrote that it may seem like circular logic.
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...efeat-palpatine.50011931/page-3#post-50695774
To that, I would say yes, I agree that that is how prophecies work in fiction, not only does it seem like circular logic, it most likely is, if you have any sort of skepticism. The thing is, just because there was some prediction was made earlier on and that prediction was called a ”prophecy” and then came to pass at some later stage, how is it possible to know it was a true prophecy at all points in time in between? If we ignore what we know of fiction on the other side of the fourth wall, how is it ever possible to know that it wasn’t just a lucky (or, ok, maybe qualified) guess, but instead something that was certainly always going to come true?
The truth is that I don’t really like prophecies all that much. Not even better ones (and this particular one is not among those I would consider to be among the better). I am very skeptical to the very notion of a foretelling. It comes off as a simple trick from the author, and also simple to see through. It comes off to me as an all too familiar trope, perhaps even a tired old cliché. Prophecies are not the reason I like this genre.
Still, all genres have tropes one might not like all too much, and sometimes one simply has to suspend disbelief, I guess. This would mean having to accept (on some level) prophecies existing in-universe somehow, despite any personal doubts one might have, which leads to…
From an in-universe perspective, the prophecy is a sort of foretelling about the future that is infallible, often able to exist despite (and side by side with) free will. Having suspending disbelief as mentioned above, I accept that the prophecy (or the in-universe entity that wrote/made it) is capable of foretelling with absolute certainty what will happen later, including what characters will opt to do**.
Clearly, this would entail that the in-universe entity writing/making the prophecy incredible supernatural powers of foresight. In the case of Star Wars, those powers of foresight would be required to go far beyond those of powerful Force users like Yoda who admits his own limits in ”Always in motion the future is” or Palpatine who didn’t see Vader betraying him (this is not saying Palpatine was weak when it came to his powers of foresight, just that a foresight which fails like this even once cannot be considered reliable/infallible enough to ever be making anything that could be considered a ”true prophecy”).
Can all accept that any in-universe entity (likely the Force itself, although it is not stated outright) capable of making completely certain predictions of the future clearly must somehow possess powers of foresight that eclipses even Palpatine’s? Said entity must simply not fail in foresight, ever. Not once.
So here comes the part where I severely disagree with a conclusion many have come up with regarding the meaning of this prophecy. They argue that because the prophecy states that only Anakin can bring balance to the Force (what it actually does say that Anakin will, not that only he can, and there is a subtle difference, even though in one sense of the word ”can”, only he can), and that killing Palpatine in Episode III would bring balance, others like Yoda or Mace could not possibly be strong enough to overcome Palpatine to the extent of being able to kill him. In other words, the prophecy says that Palpatine is too strong for Yoda or Mace to kill.
Well, here is the problem I see with that. A true prophecy, as I outlined above, must have been made by an entity with more or less infallible prediction powers. Such an entity shouldn’t have any problem knowing how other duels would play out. It should even be able to foresee Anakin intervening to save Palpatine from Mace’s killing blow. Therefore, I cannot see any reason that the prophecy conflict with the possibility that Mace would have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not intervened. That is, the prophecy may very well have taken into account Anakin’s intervention.
Please note that this certainly does not mean I actually believe Mace was winning the lightning battle prior to Anakin’s intervention, merely that the prophecy itself could not disprove that he was. I actually do believe Palpatine was somewhat stronger than Mace in Force powers. On the other hand, Mace had his lightsaber to help him, and that seems to enhance someone’s power at deflecting lightning beyond their level with their bare hands. Mace looked strained and Palpatine’s face melted (or he dropped his mask). Lucas said Palpatine tried to destroy Mace with lightning. At any rate, that part never came to its conclusion, because Palpatine altered his tactic by starting to pretend to be helpless. And we know the rest…
Anyway, I have no idea whether Mace would have been able to kill Palpatine if Anakin had not intervened, and it is certainly a valid interpretation of the scene that Palpatine would have emerged triumphant at that point even without Anakin’s help. All I am saying is that I see that as separate from the prophecy. If one believes that it also always has to be physically impossible for someone to defeat and kill an opponent when killing that person would falsify the prophecy, then that would mean Luke would not even have been physically able to kill Vader in Episode VI after cutting off his hand in the emperor’s throne room. It would also mean Darth Maul could not be strong enough to kill Anakin in Episode I, etc. Those examples would seem absurd.
Please also take into account that it is easy to make the mistake of equivocating on the word ”can”, and that conscious effort should be made not to do so. Again, if Anakin will bring balance to the Force, Yoda or Mace can not do so, yes, but that particular ”can” only apply to one meaning of the word, namely one that describes opportunity, or rather, what is compatible with known foreknowledge (which is what a prophecy is). It would not necessarily apply to other meanings of ”can not”.
On a similar note, consider this. Before Episode III came out, one could have said ”Obi-Wan can not kill Luke or Leia in the upcoming movie.” That would be true, in the sense that it would be incompatible with Luke and Leia remaining alive for later (chronologically, in-universe) episodes. However, would this ”can not” have meant that Obi-Wan would have been physically incapable of stabbing baby Luke or Leia to death? Of course not. That would be equivocation. It would have been physically (this is obviously leaving aside any form of ethics, too, including the Jedi code/way) very simple for Obi-Wan to murder baby Luke or Leia. So, as shown by this example, ”can” can mean very different things.
Whatever entity that made the prophecy in-universe can clearly foresee future events (otherwise the prophecy would ultimately just be a lucky guess, after all). Such an entity would know Palpatine was not going die at the point in time in Episode III, and would not require that Palpatine be beyond Yoda’s or Mace’s combat power to kill (even though again, it is certainly possible that he was). After all, why should it be any harder to foresee that than foreseeing the event which the prophecy prescribes? Foreseeing Anakin intervening to save Palpatine from Mace would not be any harder (or easier) than foreseeing Anakin intervening to save Luke from Palpatine.
* The topic about the nature of ”free will” is complex and could be argued forever of and by itself, but let me just say for now that I mean that someone with ”free will” is a sort of separate agent outside anyone else’s control.
** This may or may not include that free will* is merely an illusion in-universe. The nature of prophecies are almost always too vague to tell such specifics.
Tl;dr:
I have severe misgivings about prophecies in general, and their logical coherence. They are, or seem to be, made possible merely by the fact that the author of the story in actuality controls everything.
However, when suspending disbelief to the extent of accepting they can exist side by side with free will*, whatever in-universe entity making them must clearly have incredible powers of foresight. Such foresight would mean it could know certain things are going to happen, and certain things would not. Because of this ability of foresight, it could also know someone (like Palpatine) is not going to perish at some point (Episode III) or at a given character’s hands (like Mace), even if/when that happening would not have been physically impossible, the prophecy aside.
This is not saying that Mace actually was powerful enough to kill Palpatine (even if Anakin had not intervened), merely that a prophecy like that would have (almost) nothing to do with the relative power level of the two.
