Chuck's out

Jo Zebedee

Aliens vs Belfast.
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Interesting blog post here from Chuck Wendig. I have pretty strong views on what dark themes can achieve, or not, and he sums up some of my reservations very well here (although he might have missed out the use of torture to make a previously vile character likeable). And let's not start on the whole women characters thing:

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2015/06/15/sorry-game-of-thrones-its-not-you-its-me/

Anyway, it might set feathers a-ruffling. Sorry about that.
 
Nope. Still won't open. It is probably due to me being in my dorm room so I get blocked at times from most random sites.
 
Bah. :( the gist of it is, for him, the tv series has become too unremittingly grim and he's out.

aw yeah. Thanks for the gist. I can relate to that. Grimness and sex is all it seems to offer these days and characters seem to suffer for it. I hadn't watched last 4 episodes I think. Now I think I won't watch them at all.
 
i'll watch them, cause even though they (the writers) tend to go for the cheap shots, the prob. do follow some of the major storylines GRRM set up. This way i can finally deduce what grrm more or less entails for the last part ofthe story. I suppose it's a good thing you no longer watch if you don't want to get spoiled. Cause even if the show and books are different beasts, the story is somehwat different it at the same time keeps following somewhat along the same track.
 
The Cersei scene was rather long on tv, to really get it through to us that it was a horrible experience for her. But look, this is just like in the book! The fight scenes didn't have that much blood really and most of the graphic scenes in the series follow the book. Other than the Dornish prison scene a few episodes ago. If you read and enjoy the grim stories and graphic description in the book you shouldn't have that much trouble with the series. The difference with the book is that you can choose to visualize things more pleasantly or ignore them to some extent, so in a way the series gives you a more realistic view of various characters sufferings.
I think if you criticize this in the tv series then you should also criticize the books, even if they do have more dialogue due to their length.
 
the thing with the books is, i basically 'devour' them when reading. And because i read through it so fast, some of the 'finer' details are lost in the translation. It's only when i start re-reading stuff, or checking up on the forum that some parts really hit home. Before that some stuff i store as factual data. Take the red wedding, i was surprised but not quite as shocked as most others here. During my first reading i just wanted to know what would happen next in the story. It's only when i was done reading the whole novel, that i go back and re-read the stuff i stored in my head as interesting, or wanted to know the deatils about. Plus what interested me wasn't/isn't the gory details, but i wanted to know who exactly was involved (present/not present), how they where involved (innocent bystanders,...) how they managed to take the rest of the stark host whom travelled to the crossing completely unaware. Stuff like that.
 
Well, my point is that though the books have far more details than the show they still owe a lot of their popularity due to the shocks that GRRM writes. Which generally are acts that would be graphic if you could see them.
 
No doubt there is some truth to that. And it's also true for me, that because i know it's fake i don't really put the same weight behind some stuff in the books, as i would should it happen for real. You can have a complete debate about that. Should a book be so graphic, what if it influences certain people/society, ... . Obviously books can be construed as dangerous (i'm thinking religious books, Das Kapital, Mein Kampf as well as books about democracy, freedom, ... for certain states), which is why some countries ban certain books. I'd like to say i'm all about freedom of information (and thus books) and it's what you do with that info that matters, but obviously there's a wholy murky grey area in which it can be argued some knowledge/info shouldn't be open to public. Such a debate don't really interest me, since i'm lucky enough to live in Belgium, and i can take certain freedoms for granted. So i'll just bow out of that one. Plus i'm one of those people who thinks that if you go to deep into the technicalities, finer details, stuff gets boring. I know they are important, but someone else can debate for example what regulations makers of cheese (or insert any other product) have to adhere to. I'm content enjoying the fruits of their labor, since once again i can't complain about them, here in Belgium.
 
Odd. He comments on men doing all the bad things to women after listing all those bad things and mentioning many of them were actually done by women. But hey, if it's disguised by a lot of imaginative sweariness, nobody will notice these inconsistencies, not even the commentator.
 
I'm sure some version of this phrase has come up somewhere in connection with the series (books and TV), but it bares repeating. It's an odd one, and kind of shocking to some, but it fits, I think.

Misery-porn.

It means just what you'd imagine.

It fits the series to a T. It's always shocked me just how popular the series (books and TV) are because they're just endless scenes of human misery, suffering, and degradation. Sure it's generally well-written endless scenes of human misery, suffering, and degradation, but it's still endless scenes of...

I honestly do get that all drama--to a degree--is about putting characters through the wringer and seeing how they react, of course it is. But misery-porn raises things to a whole new level. Not to mention the whole heap of Schadenfreude that goes along with works like this. But hey, that's what misery-porn is all about. Some people really enjoy this kind of thing, others don't.

I think there's a fairly strong correlation to make between the state of a person's life and their enjoyment of misery-porn. When things are going great, they don't mind a bit of misery-porn. When their life slides a bit (low to midland) they bottom out in interest to the genre, but if their life really bottoms out but still have access to these kinds of things then they just might watch to see someone else get a kicking for a change. That article with Wendig is a fairly public showing of a bit of a slide and the man's interest bottoming out.
 
Any evidence to that thinking? ;) personally, I like grimdark sometimes and light stuff sometimes and it doesn't seem to correlate to any mood. For me, it's precariously close to the 'if you write it, you are it...' Argument.
 
I'm sure some version of this phrase has come up somewhere in connection with the series (books and TV), but it bares repeating. It's an odd one, and kind of shocking to some, but it fits, I think.

Misery-porn.

It means just what you'd imagine.

It fits the series to a T. It's always shocked me just how popular the series (books and TV) are because they're just endless scenes of human misery, suffering, and degradation. Sure it's generally well-written endless scenes of human misery, suffering, and degradation, but it's still endless scenes of...

I honestly do get that all drama--to a degree--is about putting characters through the wringer and seeing how they react, of course it is. But misery-porn raises things to a whole new level. Not to mention the whole heap of Schadenfreude that goes along with works like this. But hey, that's what misery-porn is all about. Some people really enjoy this kind of thing, others don't.

I think there's a fairly strong correlation to make between the state of a person's life and their enjoyment of misery-porn. When things are going great, they don't mind a bit of misery-porn. When their life slides a bit (low to midland) they bottom out in interest to the genre, but if their life really bottoms out but still have access to these kinds of things then they just might watch to see someone else get a kicking for a change. That article with Wendig is a fairly public showing of a bit of a slide and the man's interest bottoming out.

I disagree with the bold and the misery-porn moniker in regards to the books. Don't follow the show so if anyone will argue for it, have fun yo.

Martin is pretty aware that you can't overstuff it with misery and, for me personally, it is very visible in the Jon Snow storyline due to sheer genius of creating Dolorous Edd.

Bear with me now because I'll use this example to outline it. It applies to almost any storyline that is stuffed with misery in ASOIAF.

You have Jon Snow who is in a miserable and bleak place. Pretty much everyone on the wall is miserable because honestly, people who are there by choice have grown bitter through degradation of he NW and being surrounded by less than honourable people and more than a half are criminals forced to be there. Jon lost some people he liked. He is carrying a lot of responsibility, is constantly opposed and stressed, and he is stuck between rock and hard place. He is leading a band of broken and forgotten men that are hardly fit to occupy those duties 9/10 times. Just remember what Jeor Mormont thought about the most prominent people under him like Marsh and Thorne. It is no wonder Jon is miserable.

And that's fine. As a main, Jon Snow needs his dosage of angst and development though suffering because their world is a pretty messed up place not unlike the Middle Ages of our world and the place he is at is one of the most bleak and miserable ones in their world. There is a valid reason why it is so grounded in character development and recent events as well as the setting. But angst and stress and all that tend to get too much at times. They tend to get tedious. They have to happen in this case because the events are such, but they are boring to read about for too long at times.

Now, enter a lovable side-character. Most of the time, we tend to see Edd as a running commentary. A wisecracking side kick that we can quote and at whose remarks, we can crack a laugh and we don't really think much about his role in the story. He doesn't impact the events much because he is a grunt. He doesn't hold much power, he doesn't play any game, and doesn't seem interested in it. So what would be the point of introducing such character? Just for few laughs and quotable parts?

It's so simple it's brilliant. It is to break the monotony of misery surrounding the NW. And Edd's deadpan, dark, and sarcastic humour is just the thing needed to break it without terribly clashing with it. He both fits and disrupts the state because no matter how bleak and miserable and all the place is, there are still some laughs to be found in it and just keep going.

Also, in the books, Theon's torture isn't as vividly shown. We find out more about it through retelling and at time we are told about it, we are also introduced to Barbrey Dustin with her own agenda and Lord Manderly soon enters the stage too with his jolly persona that we know is hiding some sh*t in the sleeve. Even the things that happen to Jayne Poole are more referenced than described. Even at Red Wedding, in books, you don't have the scene with Robb's wife which is actually the one completely gruesome part of it for me because the rest is well, killing. It is supposed to be bloody. You feel the scene more for the Catelyn's pain than description of gore.

In the books, there is simply too much going on with well-written side-characters and their stories that the misery and suffering of the POVs and mains is contrasted with some light in it and balanced out to a degree. It is also balanced out by the sheer complexity of the characters so that they are multidimensional in a way that they don't have to constantly be in one mindset. It is still a dark place, but there are a few candles here and there. I best noticed this while contrasting the books with the show because there is the absence of Edd being such deadpan snarker and for it, Jon's storyline just got so tedious that it became a chore to watch. Same for scenes of several other characters. I wasn't outraged by the show to the point of quitting. I felt it was a chore because the candles were taken out and things simplified to the point where the misery was the point of it all and not a tool for development.

I also agree with Jo regarding the last paragraph. It is a dangerous hasty generalization and thus fallacious in nature.
 
Any evidence to that thinking? ;) personally, I like grimdark sometimes and light stuff sometimes and it doesn't seem to correlate to any mood. For me, it's precariously close to the 'if you write it, you are it...' Argument.

Not at all. Is there really a need to provide 'evidence' that people read what they enjoy reading and avoid reading what they don't enjoy? Are we that deep into rhetoric and that far gone from reality? If you don't enjoy reading a given work or author, you won't read it. You might force yourself for one of a few short-listed reasons, but they generally involve school or work-related stuff like taking a class or being a reviewer or a writer who wants to see what all the fuss is about. Some people don't like science fiction so shock of shocks... they don't read science fiction. Sorry, but I don't have an academic article in support of that claim.

I disagree with the bold and the misery-porn moniker in regards to the books. Don't follow the show so if anyone will argue for it, have fun yo...

It's so simple it's brilliant. It is to break the monotony of misery surrounding the NW. And Edd's deadpan, dark, and sarcastic humour is just the thing needed to break it without terribly clashing with it. He both fits and disrupts the state because no matter how bleak and miserable and all the place is, there are still some laughs to be found in it and just keep going...

That's basic writing, though. Not a stroke of genius. That's why in horror movies you have the 'maybe I'm safe here' moment, to allow the audience to relax after some high-tension moments. Or the breather scenes between all the explosions and gunfights in action movies, to allow the audience to relax. Or the serious moments in comedies. These exist to counterbalance the overriding drive of the piece and give the audience time to come back to 'normal' between dark/dramatic/horror/action/comedic beats. Most writers recognize that not only can they not keep hitting the same beat over and over without a drastic loss of effect, but the audience simply won't stand for it. So they use breather moments to let the tension out of the audience so they can ramp the tension back up again in the next scene. But those moments of rest don't change the basic nature of the film, piece, whatever. The dramatic moments in a comedy don't make it not a comedy, just as the lighter moments in ASOIAF don't make it not grimdark or misery-porn.
 
That's basic writing, though. Not a stroke of genius. That's why in horror movies you have the 'maybe I'm safe here' moment, to allow the audience to relax after some high-tension moments. Or the breather scenes between all the explosions and gunfights in action movies, to allow the audience to relax. Or the serious moments in comedies. These exist to counterbalance the overriding drive of the piece and give the audience time to come back to 'normal' between dark/dramatic/horror/action/comedic beats. Most writers recognize that not only can they not keep hitting the same beat over and over without a drastic loss of effect, but the audience simply won't stand for it. So they use breather moments to let the tension out of the audience so they can ramp the tension back up again in the next scene. But those moments of rest don't change the basic nature of the film, piece, whatever. The dramatic moments in a comedy don't make it not a comedy, just as the lighter moments in ASOIAF don't make it not grimdark or misery-porn.

Nope. Not in Edd's case. Edd exists solely for that purpose. He has practically no other role to fill and he still works. All those other things you mention also exist to further the characters and plot. When they don't, we call them bad and stale and detracting and generally useless. Edd on his own doesn't have much of a purpose outside of the commentary. He is practically the jester of Jon's storyline. That's why he is so brilliant.

No, the 'maybe I'm safe' moments exist to bring the tension up because they work with the knowledge that audience knows person isn't safe.

The moments are exactly what changes it. They are what defines the line between a dark world and misery-porn. It doesn't have to change the entire nature of the piece in order to remove it from the extreme. Only when such moments don't exist or are made painfully sparse can you call it misery-porn.
 
I find it curious that this show in particular seems to prompt people to make lengthy, public declarations of why they are no longer going to watch it. Don't get me wrong, that's their prerogative, but I kind of feel like, if you don't like it, just don't watch it. Is it really necessary to make a big song and dance of it? It always comes off as grandstanding to me, even when the articles are full of denials - 'Hey, I'm not judging you if you keep watching it...'

One argument I've seen again and again, including in Wendig's essay, is Sansa's lack of agency in her storyline, and I just don't get this. Yes, it'd be a great cathartic moment if she did fight back, if she embraced her inner Arya and slit that (literal) *******'s throat while he slept. But I also understand that, in reality, not everyone is built like that. Hell, as much as I'd like to think I would fight back in a similar situation, a part of me knows that that's far from certain. Because, as bad as things are now, what if I fail? Things can always get worse.

Since season one, I have been disappointed in the show's overuse of sexual imagery, and I still stand by that. Parts of the show make me uncomfortable, and Cersei's march was one of those times. I thought it could have been shorter, and done much less graphically. But on the whole, I am gripped by the show. Sometimes that's pure entertainment (the recent White Walker battle that Wendig also seemed to dig), sometimes it's through tension (Stannis isn't going to burn Shireen, he'll change his mind, he'll definitely change his mind, seriously running out of time to change your mind here, Stannis...), sometimes it's character moments, sometimes it's shocks and surprises, and sometimes, yes, it's tragedy. I don't watch it because I approve of torture or pedophilia or rape or any of the other horrible stuff that happens. But if it was all cheery, and everything ended well, well then it wouldn't be particularly interesting, to be honest...
 
Misery porn is somewhat of an exaggeration. Ok it is often grim and you can claim a few scenes fall in to that category but we are seeing intrigue interspersed with shocks. In the TV series the main comedy or more light hearted sections come via Bronn and Tyrion. Also Sam to some extent in earlier episodes and the odd dry comment by the likes of Jaime, or seeing royal advisors being foolish. I agree Edd could have been kept as amusing on TV. Also the sexual imagery could be toned down, but as has been said this probably adds viewers.

Sansa tries to escape so she does show a kind of bravery to take the risk.
 
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