How early (date) would you accept a Mutual Farmers Association?

[Phyrebrat]

Hi,

Bearing in mind that in the Middle Ages serfs and peasants worked the land of the Lord of the manor and had very little rights, at what date would you be willing to go along with for the creation of a situation where 8 local farmers in Dorset create a sort of trading post (MFA). There are:

2 Agrarian Farmers (one of which is scheming to take control and get into wool farming)
3 Pig Farmers
2 Rope Makers
1 Net Maker

It's hopelessly early for this to happen - bearing in mind the Tolpuddle Martyr stuff that happened so much later on regarding unions etc, but I really want to edge it back for my WIP.

How far back from the late 1700s would you be prepared to accept?

I'd really like to be able to push it way back to coincide with the mid 1300s but I know that's an unbelievable stretch.

I can separate the narratives to create a Plague one and a separate MFA one but I'd really rather not...

I've spent two days reading dissertations on disease, Middle Age farming, unions and I'm about to make a decision...please help me make it!

pH

 

[Mad Alice]

Neolithic times perhaps?

Agrarian consortiums were, after all, the building blocks of the establishment of communities and are actually the base bone of civilization. Providing the transfer of commodity accumilation basis from that of the hunter gather society, to the more stable agrarian society model.

It was only later during the fall of the many separate kingdoms of Britain that these sort of self governing things were frowned upon. After all anyone with the abilty in that time could become chief, and therefore King. Then whoever it was that was fighting for overlordship of the area would have to bring back his army and win it again. So ability to organize themselves was strongly discouraged.

Sounds very much like what would happen in a Saxon enclave. Perhaps there is an Earl overseeing the district and a direct Saxon rule of cheiftans. But the Earl has been called to Service under the Crown, in an off shore war. And your local man, upstart Norman Lord, is trying to lay claim to the area.

I realize its a bit 'Robin Hood' in tone, but that would familiarize it to readers and add to its acceptability.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I'm one of those people who wouldn't really worry about it, if you told me it was happening in your story. If it's in the story and makes sense in context, I don't trouble myself too much with historical things -- unless it's historical fiction.

That said, I do recall puzzling a bit over coffee shops in a steampunk series -- but I got over it.

 

[Brian G Turner]

at what date would you be willing to go along with for the creation of a situation where 8 local farmers in Dorset create a sort of trading post

A handful of people forming a small protective guild for their interests? Doesn't sound infeasible at all, in any period. Watch out for social and professional barriers, such as existing guilds, though. Beware of generalisations from historical research, too.

coincide with the mid 1300s

You're talking about the time of the Black Death, and just after. Huge social changes followed that.

I know I've recommended Pillars of the Earth, but its sequel, World Without End actually covers the plague and post-plague period. I didn't find it as engaging as the first book, but honestly, read both and you'll answer so many potential research questions.

The dedicated research books I've read about mediaeval villages have been mostly dry and dull. However, there was a TV series - and accompanying book - called Tudor Monastery Farm that may be worth looking out for as a great introduction. Although it's a later period, rural life didn't change much at all from the mediaeval period. We have a thread on it here:
https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/546241/

 

[Phyrebrat]

Thanks for the replies.

My problem is that these traders/farmers would not own any land, would they? My understanding is that it would be the lord of the manor and they would be working the land as opposed to owning it.

The premise I want is that they combine to form a guild using this collective land which one of the grain farmers later 'inherits' by murdering the others. The Plague part isn't really experienced in any depth as its arrival heralds the end of that narrative strand of my WIP.

The timeline is that the church from the 1178AD story ends up as a leprosy hospital as so many churches did, but that this trading group in 1300 manage to end up with the land after the church is abandoned, and convert it to their mutual association.

But I would assume that the land belongs to the church still, despite the dereliction of the site, or at the very least, some lord (or Baron) by 1300AD.

Speaking of Pillars of the Earth, I'm still waiting for it to be delivered! I ordered it over a month ago!

pH

 

[Brian G Turner]

My problem is that these traders/farmers would not own any land, would they?

Technically, only the king owned the land, and it was leased and subleased through his lords. However, people could still own rights to the land they farmed, and freemen/yeomen held no fealty to any lord - so far as I understand it.

So the farmers could effectively own their own land, and even merchants could (but would be more likely to lease it for a regular income) - all with the caveat of paying a tax for such rights. Potentially. (I stand to be corrected in any and all this.)

What you're suggesting may not be a problem at all, though it would be helpful to remain aware of any potential issues.

Shame Pillars hasn't come yet - sounds like you need to chase someone up about that.

 

[Mad Alice]

This is a description of the pre-norman invasion land rights system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookland_(law)

This is a book with e-excerpts about peasants building early market economies.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=z5u2icAPingC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=early+norman+farming+collectives&source=bl&ots=fCrMayyb2N&sig=e73-lkzIsvmwSWccWzY6hjrhuoU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NheUVai5HIbv-QGLkKDIDA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=early norman farming collectives&f=false

An explanation of the place of Freemen within the feudal system of land tenureship.

www.thefinertimes.com/...Ages/peasants-in-the-middle-ages.html

And a pdf of an overview of medieval society as per societal rights

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.tollmiddleschool.org/apps/download/2/iC6nYimhr8VJxkYI4fQngBk4btsaMsRY0mU6qKZjjrNLvy7f.doc/Feudal+Society_freemanandserfs_HH.doc&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=bhiUVe3BI8Hz-AGyyLOICg&ved=0CBoQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNGduxFHOpipJ5ygReM2TvZ6ogFWyg

Good luck with it, Phyrebrat. (Though I still think you could snaff the Robin Hood situ, )
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[millymollymo]

Local history has guilds and associations related to the monasteries (after a fashion) wandering way back into the 1200s and before. Just because they didn't own land they were still loyal/protective to it. One tends to remember what side one's bread is buttered after all

 

[Kissmequick]

As long as you aren't writing historical fantasy...


As soon as it becomes practical and your worldbuilding supports

 

[Phyrebrat]

Phew a lot to take in on this thread and the helpful replies.

As a quick (not quick) aside; when I was walking back from teaching at a particularly tough school today, I was feeling happy and I was considering my writing growth (it's a little tumor on the back of my knee called Bobo ) and how when I first came here it was about learning the basic skills of storytelling, how to analyse and mine an idea or concept, then how to draw real characters. Lately I've been internalising about my writing being simplistic in that it happens in today's world rather than a fantastic one I've created. I'm finding this research really exhausting and hard (I'm enjoying, though) and the penny dropped that this is another side to writing that I'd not yet addressed; something that will improve my stories. So I feel - in a way - quite empowered about my learning curve. Okay, enough of that..

So the farmers could effectively own their own land, and even merchants could (but would be more likely to lease it for a regular income) - all with the caveat of paying a tax for such rights. Potentially. (I stand to be corrected in any and all this.)

This, I could work with, thanks

Good luck with it, Phyrebrat. (Though I still think you could snaff the Robin Hood situ, )
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Thanks Mad Alice, for such an exhaustive and helpful list! I really, really appreciate the effort you've gone to for me.

Local history has guilds and associations related to the monasteries (after a fashion) wandering way back into the 1200s and before. Just because they didn't own land they were still loyal/protective to it. One tends to remember what side one's bread is buttered after all

Yes, I really want to maintain the link with the church; it would give a through-line to the story that although is not imperative, would add a nice sense of continuing coherency.

As long as you aren't writing historical fantasy...
As soon as it becomes practical and your worldbuilding supports

I know you're right, and I think I'm going to have to stop being so picky at some stage in the writing (I should get the first draft finished before I uncross my legs, though). The issue for me is that horror is only really scary when it is believable and if I know I am fudging something, someone else will - probably - find out and it could cause a break in the suspension of disbelief. I'm okay with the odd artistic liberty here and there, and I know I'm not writing a non-fiction account - nor can I hope to compete with the likes of Hilary Mantel or Susanna Clarke - but my concern over this point is stemming my creativity in terms of actually writing the thing. (It's so funny, I can hear a unison of Chronners voices crying 'Oh get over it you fool!'.)

Again, thanks all for the tips, links, encouragement and help

pH

 

[Mad Alice]

I understand your concerns over the suspension of disbelief within your story, Phyrebrat. I stopped reading Mr. Stephen King's books after helping my Dad fix my Mum's Ford Pinto, the car featured in Cujo. You see the back seat folds down to let you get into the boot from the car's interior. All that would've been needed to defeat the doggie would have been a judicious application of the tyre iron.

 

[millymollymo]

Phew a lot to take in on this thread and the helpful replies.


I know you're right, and I think I'm going to have to stop being so picky at some stage in the writing (I should get the first draft finished before I uncross my legs, though). The issue for me is that horror is only really scary when it is believable and if I know I am fudging something, someone else will - probably - find out and it could cause a break in the suspension of disbelief. I'm okay with the odd artistic liberty here and there, and I know I'm not writing a non-fiction account - nor can I hope to compete with the likes of Hilary Mantel or Susanna Clarke - but my concern over this point is stemming my creativity in terms of actually writing the thing. (It's so funny, I can hear a unison of Chronners voices crying 'Oh get over it you fool!'.)


pH

I like my research, the little things you find while hunting one thing add to the story. I think most of us have been brick walled by this somewhere along the line. "I have to get this right or everyone* will know..." Is it really worth not finishing the story because of it? Pillars of the Earth is highly detailed, and anyone reading it will be skilled enough to build their own cathedral on finishing. I am told. Does that add to the story? how many readers dropped out of the story because of the level of research? (Still waiting to get my book back to read it myself)

http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/fountains/lands/

If you then go on to explore each abbey from this - you will find that the community (naturally) grew around their trades.
Stop worrying and write. (If only we paid attention to our own advice!)

*not quite everyone, but everyone enough to set you off down a rabbit hole.