Medieval gazumping! Help needed

Phyrebrat

www.beanwriting.com
Supporter
Joined
Feb 13, 2011
Messages
6,163
Location
In your bedroom wardrobe...
Hi all,

More logistical problems with le WIP, I hope you can help me with:

In my 1340s strand narrative a lowly person needs to get ownership of land. Initially it belongs to the church. He is a tradesman (could be farmer, could be smith or miller). I want him to be able to end up with the land by foul means. My initial idea will not work because land was owned by the church or the crown. I'm not sure how I can get round this now and it's creating a major bug. The land as it is belongs to the church but I'd rather not have him as a church head as the 1178 strand has the church stealing the land from the pagans.

Can you think of a way round this? Renting? But what happens when he kills off FB owner? I'm literally, for the first time Ever, stuck!

I've been spending hours and hours familiarising myself and researching medieval farming practices and life, and I'm ready to start the writing but can't because of this. I also can't write any more of the 2004 storyline till I sort this out.

Any ideas? Even if it sounds a stretch, at this stage I'm open to pretty much anything serious that isn't deus ex.

pH
 
Can you think of a way round this? Renting? But what happens when he kills off FB owner?

Can't work out what "FB owner" means, sorry. (Not Mark Zuckerberg, I assume.) And I'm not sure if you mean renting would be a solution, but there are obstacles to it. How vital is actual ownership?
 
Have you seen the Historian Michael Wood's excellent Christina: A medieval life? From memory he tells the story of a said woman (around about the time of the black death) Also I do remember the story includes her father's upward mobility as he obtains and farms more and more land. There might be some clues in there for you...

It's not on BBC Iplayer, however I'm listening to it right now on Youtube, and the whole episode seems to be there (which is probably illegal, but nevermind...)

Even if it doesn't give you an idea for your specific problem, if you haven't seen it, I do think it'll help your research!
 
In my 1340s strand narrative a lowly person needs to get ownership of land

If the Church isn't working that land, opportunists might develop it and argue that it belongs to them because of that. The current legal owner will likely have a document proving ownership - but trying to explain, demonstrate, and prove the actual boundaries of that land is another thing. This could become even more acute if the land is next to already owned and worked land. :)

IMO better to just write, and presume that you've already solved the issue. Where you reference how it was done, you could simply leave gaps in this first draft, and then fill them in on the second draft - by which time you may have solved lots of potential problems.
 
If the Church isn't working that land, opportunists might develop it and argue that it belongs to them because of that. The current legal owner will likely have a document proving ownership

I might be wrong, but I think PhyreBrat's difficulty is down to the fact (if it is a fact) that only the King or the Church could own land. Everyone who wasn't the Church held it (ultimately) from the King.
 
Technically. Hence I suppose William the Conquerer compiling the Doomsday Book.

In practice though for everyday purposes someone would work/control it and there would be some sort of rent / lease / tax.
Even today does an individual really own land (the Government can just take it and decide on compensation). Many people's houses (more so in UK, in 1980s anyway than Ireland) are not freehold.
Who owns any treasure / minerals / coal / oil / gas / rare birds / rare animals on "your" land?

I presume peppercorn rent was to ensure a line of control of ownership?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppercorn_(legal)

Church establishments certainly "let out" property they controlled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_Barn,_Dunster

Such property then would presumably be controlled by a family and perhaps could even be "sold" or "acquired" by a new farmer provided the Church continued to get their income.

No doubt any rent would not be paid till requested and if wasn't collected the control could be "lost".

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession
Adverse possession is one of the most contentious methods of acquiring property, albeit one that has played a huge role in the history of English land. Historically, if someone possessed land for long enough, it was thought that this in itself justified acquisition of a good title. This meant that while English land was continually conquered, pillaged, and stolen by various factions, lords or barons throughout the middle ages, those who could show they possessed land long enough would not have their title questioned.

See also Homesteading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession#Comparison_to_homesteading

While the Church or King technically owned all land, the effective ownership was based on occupancy and who paid rent to who.
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Just back from teaching at the gym...ready to grab this problem by the throat and shake it till it don't shake no mo' (sorry, still in azonto mode).

I joined Historum.com and a farming forum but you know how it is, when people join here and then smash and grab. I don't want to be one of them...

Can't work out what "FB owner" means, sorry. (Not Mark Zuckerberg, I assume.) And I'm not sure if you mean renting would be a solution, but there are obstacles to it. How vital is actual ownership?

Darn autocorrect. I typed the query in my notes app in my phone and then pasted it while I was on the tube this morning. FB is meant to simply be 'the'. Tell me what kind of mistake I must have made to construe FB out of 'the' ? ;)

Can't help with the query, but can totally recommend The Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England by Ian Mortimer. Perfect research book.

Thanks, Stephen. It's on order. I finished the Medieval Underpants one but there isn't so much in that that I can use. Looking forward to reading this. I swear in the last two months I've read more than I did for my Thesis.

If the Church isn't working that land, opportunists might develop it and argue that it belongs to them because of that. The current legal owner will likely have a document proving ownership - but trying to explain, demonstrate, and prove the actual boundaries of that land is another thing. This could become even more acute if the land is next to already owned and worked land. :)

See, this I could work with but my gut tells me some peasants appropriating the land and then trying to argue its ownership in a feudal, biased, nascent legal system, would not end up with the land.

IMO better to just write, and presume that you've already solved the issue. Where you reference how it was done, you could simply leave gaps in this first draft, and then fill them in on the second draft - by which time you may have solved lots of potential problems.

Haha, I knew you'd say that, Brian ;) I really can't write it simply because the current time thread needs to discuss this part in passing (more info below) and I foresee a massive amount of revisionist editing if I do - I know there are a few scenes and bits and pieces I can write in the meantime, but I really like writing chronologically - esp bearing in mind all the time threads.

I might be wrong, but I think PhyreBrat's difficulty is down to the fact (if it is a fact) that only the King or the Church could own land. Everyone who wasn't the Church held it (ultimately) from the King.

Yep, exactly this. I need Henry Shielde to obtain the land by foul play. The main theme of the novel is one of misappropriation (mostly regarding the land) and each time period deals with shenanigans on the site - or those connected with its ownership - to such an extent that in the main narrative, 2004, the place is absolutely inundated with malignant and unquiet spirits; and I don't want to bore you all, but this is the structure I have;

1176 The Church converts the land which is a pagan stone circle and burial site with barrows.
1340s The church is now operating as a leper hospital by Benedictine Monks and the grounds have grown to allow the housing of the lepers. In addition there is now a smithy and a mill run by two of the monks (my research tells me this is historically accurate for monasteries to have their own monks doing this). Henry Shielde is a tradesman (or farmer, or could even be one of the smiths or millers) and hatches a plan with the Abbot (Abbot Firmin) to convert the Monastery to a trading post with permission from the crown. But Shielde doublecrosses the Abbot and the other 5 or 6 traders and gains the place for himself. Calls it Sheedthorpe Grange
1700 Lord Selwyn inherits and redesigns to Bossthorpe Manor. Dies and is taken by his steward.
1769 Passes to 2nd Earl Greville - ineffective fop who moves to Florence and leaves it in charge of his steward who begins dismantling it and selling it off. reduces in size
1800s Fleeing persecution from the States, Lazaro Rocha and wife Henrietta buy the house and rename it Riffy Grange. Passes to Adele Riffy in mid 1900s.
2004 - Bought by Kate and Neil.

The story doesn't run through them in order, the main thread of 2004 is cut with 1176 & 1340 then 1340 & 1700s, then 1770s & 1800s. Because of this, I want to have the land rights sorted out in my mind. If you remember from my earlier crit entry, Henry Shielde was one of 7 men formed of pig farmers, agricultural farmers, rope and net makers. Then I found out that farming was not separated in specialist areas till modern times. Hence ditching that and having smiths and millers replacing and the farmers being livestock AND agrarian. I don't care at this point what their roles are, I just want a way for the guild to be formed of authentic people who would have genuine need/stakes for the guild to exist. And if possible, I'd rather have Shielde as not connected to the church as I don;t want my story to turn into an anti-church polemic.

I hope I'm making sense.

I'm really tearing my hair out at the simplest things! Thanks for your continued help.

pH
 
I might be wrong, but I think PhyreBrat's difficulty is down to the fact (if it is a fact) that only the King or the Church could own land. Everyone who wasn't the Church held it (ultimately) from the King.
See, this I could work with but my gut tells me some peasants appropriating the land and then trying to argue its ownership in a feudal, biased, nascent legal system, would not end up with the land.

My bad - I meant to refer to rights.

So although the church might technically own the land, the farmers could argue that they have a right to develop it: perhaps because it's so close to their own, the church is not developing it, else there's a long-established tradition of working that land in a particular way that the locals should expect every right to continue. Someone could argue that a precedent set elsewhere means that it can be validly applied here.

Additionally, as above, proving boundaries can be very difficult. Even in well-designated field systems, village records commonly show fines for one people "accidentally" appropriating land from their neighbours.

Another potential issue I'd need to research - when appropriating religious land, then would any legal judgement from that come from the king's court via the local sheriff/bailiff, or would it go through the ecclesiastical court? If the former, the friends of the farmers could well dominate the jury and excuse them, especially if they see common cause.

I guess it really depends on what you technically want to achieve - but the actual technicality might not be so important as the actual fact that X group of people intend to use Y's land for themselves. There are all sorts of arguments that could be put forward to justify it. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that illiterate villagers could be very clever at trying to wangle their own way through the mediaeval legal system.

2c.
 
Can't you just blackmail someone? Either find a major local cleric (bishop, say) who's been having his end away with a nobleman's daughter and 'persuade' him to confirm the land belongs to the chap in question.

And I second the Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England. It's a fantastic book.
 
I've looked out my old degree notes as we had to do quite a bit on pre-C20th land law to understand the 1925 LPA. It might help if I regurgitate a load of it, so you've got some background detail. Sorry, this is going to be a long post.


Following the Norman Conquest all land in England was owned by the Crown alone (and technically still is, of course). However, ownership of an estate in land (that is, the right to use it) was granted by the king to his tenants-in-chief eg on condition they provided so many men-at-arms and horses when called upon (that obligation was called knights’ service). The church was no different from the barons – any land held by the church was still held from the King but on terms of spiritual service ie to pray and say mass.

The tenants-in-chief could grant a subordinate fief of their estate ownership, ie in effect sublet the use of (part of) the land. (NB at this time there’s no concept of leasehold as we think of it today so "sublet" isn’t accurate as a term, it just easy to use as an expression.) That new under-tenant could then “sublet” in his turn, all the way down to the man in actual occupation, called the tenant in demesne. In each instance the original terms of tenure would have been to provide men or materiel or to perform certain spiritual or lay duties (eg the tenure of socage involved having to provide agricultural services such as so many days ploughing per year). However, in the C12th and C13th these obligations attached to the land were increasingly commuted to money payments by the tenant.

This "subletting" was called subinfeudation, and in theory there was no limit to the number of steps it comprised, and as a result ownership of the estate in the land could get complicated with dozens of “sublets”. In 1290 the statute Quia Emptores was passed which prevented that. Thereafter any tenant below a tenant-in-chief could no longer grant a subordinate fief while retaining his place in the chain linking the King to the tenant in demesne; instead, if he wanted to sell the land, he had to sell all his rights in it and drop out of the chain entirely. eg the King grants the use of 10,000 acres of Cheshire to Earl Roger, who grants the use of 1,000 acres of those acres to Sir Geoffrey, who sells 100 acres to Farmer Jollice. Pre-1290, the obligations go all the way up, from FJ to SG, to ER, to the King. Post-1290, though, SG is removed from the chain and FJ owes the use of his 100 acres and any lingering obligations attached to the land direct to Roger, who has had to consent to the sale. (The requirement for the overlord’s consent was eliminated in due course, and in 1387 the tenants-in-chief could alienate their land, too.)

Initially the use of the land was granted for life, so at a tenant’s death the estate reverted to the overlord who could then grant it to another vassal, though in practice it usually went to the tenant’s heir, again for his life. In time, though, the land was granted to the prospective tenant “and his heirs”. That presented no problems when subinfeudation was allowed, as the heir simply stepped into his father’s shoes viz-a-viz the sub-tenants under him. After 1290, though, the heirs got antsy, because their rights had been lost eg Sir Geoffrey’s son Hugh no longer has the rights to the 100 acres sold to Jollice. Sons brought court cases trying to get back the land from the new possessors, but with no success and the concept of owning an estate in land in fee simple was born.

However, some land was granted in fee tail, ie to the prospective tenant “and the heirs of his body”. The courts tried to fudge that to allow for a tenant to pass the land to someone other than his descendants, but a 1285 statute, De Donis, put a stop to that and as a result mucked up the position of those who bought land post 1290. Thereafter the heirs of the body still possessed the land even if it had been sold eg in that event Hugh, Sir Geoffrey’s son, would own the 100 acres, not Jollice, no matter that Jollice had paid for it years before Geoffrey died. This meant the land was effectively inalienable and in due course no one would attempt to buy land if it were entailed in this way, but there must have been many people caught out like Jollice thinking they had bought land legitimately, only for the courts to decide against them. My notes don't say if they received any compensation for the loss eg the return of the purchase money.

In addition there were other tenures, the most interesting of which are: estate per autre vie (eg a man might grant land to his prospective son-in-law but on his daughter’s life, so at her death it reverted to him and the son-in-law couldn’t sell it or pass it to his children); estate by curtesy (if the estate had devolved to a married woman, on her death her widower was entitled to a life interest in the land as long as there were heirs of the marriage); estate of dower (when a married man died seised of land, his widow had a life interest in one-third of it, provided there were heirs to take the other two-thirds).

Because of certain legal issues arising out of the more complex tenures the concept of the Trust arose (called Use at first) whereby the land was held by trustees (then called feoffees). This was given a boost at the time of the Crusades when a crusader would grant the land to non-crusading friends/associates to the use of his wife until he returned or his son achieved the age of 21, intending to give his family protection during his absence/at his death. However, this wasn’t foolproof as the law stated that the feoffees were the legal owners pending the crusader's return etc and neither the grantor nor the intended beneficiaries had any rights in the meantime so they could be chucked off the land – unconscionable but legal. The Lord Chancellor as keeper of the nation’s conscience could remedy the common law’s defects and after the complaints became too numerous to ignore there were interventions which stopped short of attacking the legality of the situation but tried to ameliorate its effects eg by locking up the feoffees until they did the right thing by the wife and children.

As a side issue, which might help provoke ideas, over the centuries there was a growth of incidences of tenure, whereby payments had to be made on eg the death or marriage of a tenant, and the development of escheat where tenure was ended eg if a tenant had no heirs or he was sentenced to death after criminal conviction. At the same time a body of custom arose around so-called unfree tenure (where someone was allowed use of the land but on the overlord’s whim, not under specific legal obligations) which gradually allowed the at-whim tenants similar rights to free tenants eg allowing their heirs to inherit the use of the land on which they worked. By the end of the 15th century long established custom had the force of law in the courts, but that custom varied from county to county, even parish to parish.


OK, you might think none of that is relevant as the soon-to-be Grange** is owned by the church, but it's not quite that simple. The church isn't a single person like the crown, or a monolith that owns all and any land occupied by clerics and monks – land would be granted to specific people/communities. I've not checked but I suspect the grants would be to eg the Dean and Chapter of a cathedral for instance, or to the specific order of monks/nuns. But unless that grant was from the King direct, there's going to be an intervening lay person granting the land to the Benedictines at some point. (NB Apparently, since Franciscan monks couldn’t own property, land granted to them was always held in trust for their use, so perhaps changing the order might help!) That lay person's status and the terms of the original grant to him and before 1290 to his overlords would therefore be relevant in assessing whether the monks actually do own the land no matter what they think.

Even if the monks can be legally dispossessed by an overlord, quite how Shielde could parlay that into getting possession and legal ownership himself, I'm not sure. Destroying legal documents and/or forging new ones is always a possibility, of course, though costly, and outright murder of anyone who knows different is always a good thing. I'll carry on looking through my notes and see if I can find anything about adverse possession (squatters' rights) in the Middle Ages, but that's unlikely to be of help in this particular situation since it requires sole possession of the land without acknowledging anyone else's title, so if Shielde has paid anything to the monks to use the land it wouldn't work.

An alternative might be to leave Shielde's involvement until the 1540s and the dissolution, when he could buy it from the Crown. Deception and malfeasance could still come into play, eg if he lies about the monks and their behaviour and/or cheats someone else out of the purchase.


** Have you checked usage? I'm not convinced it would be used as a formal name quite so early.


EDIT: just re-read your opening post. Strictly, the church couldn't have "stolen" the land from the pagans in 1178, as the pagans could only legally have held it under feudal terms (ie under the subinfeudation I talked about above) which seems to me unlikely. The church could, of course, be the new legal owners and have forcibly dispossessed the pagans who were in actual physical but not-lawful occupation of the site.
 
Last edited:
I'm not in possession of enough superlatives of thanks for that incredibly helpful post @The Judge ... Thanks also to Ray - my earlier post today must have crossed with yours.

Now, I have an idea that I could use the escheat method; as sole heir that Shielde sets up to be found guilty of a crime and is sentenced to death (I ditched a side story a while ago about the theft of a church bell that's based on a rather Fortean {if not apocryphal} historic case). I'll have a brainstorm* with the details you've given me and post my proposal; if anyone is interested in pointing out shortcomings, I'd be grateful.

Re the use of Grange - I'd initially only used that term as a placeholder. The important bit was Sheedthorpe as a corruption of Shielde. The hidden meaning for the words Riffy, Bost/Boss, Ladrão (the latter from which we get the name Lazaro) all have references to the words bloody, thief or dirty. (An unimportant detail, more indicative of me trying to be clever...)

On an obsequious side-note, I was having a chat with my dad the other day on how words like 'blessed' and 'humbled' are so overused these days bya disingenuous feely-touchy society. However, I do feel legitimately humble from the effort you have all put into my dilemma. My acknowledgements folder in Scrivener is going to be half the lenght of the book itself :)

Anyway, I'm very happy now.

pH

*these days we're not allowed to use that word. It has to be 'mind map' <sigh>.
 
Hi all,

More logistical problems with le WIP, I hope you can help me with:

In my 1340s strand narrative a lowly person needs to get ownership of land. Initially it belongs to the church. He is a tradesman (could be farmer, could be smith or miller). I want him to be able to end up with the land by foul means. My initial idea will not work because land was owned by the church or the crown. I'm not sure how I can get round this now and it's creating a major bug. The land as it is belongs to the church but I'd rather not have him as a church head as the 1178 strand has the church stealing the land from the pagans.

Can you think of a way round this? Renting? But what happens when he kills off FB owner? I'm literally, for the first time Ever, stuck!

I've been spending hours and hours familiarising myself and researching medieval farming practices and life, and I'm ready to start the writing but can't because of this. I also can't write any more of the 2004 storyline till I sort this out.

Any ideas? Even if it sounds a stretch, at this stage I'm open to pretty much anything serious that isn't deus ex.

pH

Easy. Feudal law created an utter tangle of ownership. Just have him fake a document changing a definition then bribe or blackmail a judge.
 
I'm back, and here are my thoughts regarding the logic:


  1. The church acts as tenant-in-chief of the land.
  2. Shielde conspires with the corrupt Abbot to 'dissolve' the leper colony and convert the grounds around the church to a trading post on the promise of a generous backhander to the Abbot over-and-above an already-agreed church tithe.
  3. After the guild of tradesmen and farmers is in place and operating, Shielde frames the church for crimes, the Abbot specifically is charged and found guilty of a crime which carries death sentence.
  4. In the resulting muddle, under the development of escheat, the 7 traders become feoffees (until the church can appoint a new tenant-in-chief?)
  5. Shielde does away with the others and as sole trustee, temporarily controls the land.
  6. over the next 400 years the Shielde family gain legal recognition of the land - played offscreen in the tme leap between 1340s plague and 1700s.
Does this sound plausible? This is so I can get it straight in my head and it won't necessarily be thrashed out on the pages. I just need the logic and legalities to be authentic.

Thanks

pH
 
I'm back, and here are my thoughts regarding the logic:


  1. The church acts as tenant-in-chief of the land.
  2. Shielde conspires with the corrupt Abbot to 'dissolve' the leper colony and convert the grounds around the church to a trading post on the promise of a generous backhander to the Abbot over-and-above an already-agreed church tithe.
  3. After the guild of tradesmen and farmers is in place and operating, Shielde frames the church for crimes, the Abbot specifically is charged and found guilty of a crime which carries death sentence.
  4. In the resulting muddle, under the development of escheat, the 7 traders become feoffees (until the church can appoint a new tenant-in-chief?)
  5. Shielde does away with the others and as sole trustee, temporarily controls the land.
  6. over the next 400 years the Shielde family gain legal recognition of the land - played offscreen in the tme leap between 1340s plague and 1700s.
Does this sound plausible? This is so I can get it straight in my head and it won't necessarily be thrashed out on the pages. I just need the logic and legalities to be authentic.

Thanks

pH

Not sure about the death sentence for the abbot.

Real medieval land grabs were usually simple and involved more blatant threat of violence.

1. Abbey owns land.
2. During the early Wars of the Roses, Raynard de Shield fabricates claim and seizes the land.
3. Abbot complains, but Raynard is a man of the Earl of Warwick.
4. Legal case drags on, but Raynard changes sides at all the right moments and the local judges are always part of his lord's retinue (look up "maintenance")
5. Abbot wins but Raynard II hangs onto his land anyway, murders the sheriff's man, but is pardoned by the king in time for the battle of Flodden.
6. Dissolution of the Monasteries.
 
Thanks @M Harold Page,

(The Abbot is found 'guilty' of killing the vast majority of the population of the monastery/leper hospital by arson - I think death sentence for that is appropriate)

pH


Treason perhaps, and certainly dying in prison (under dubious circumstances) might be a better bet. (Link to google book)

However, the problem with doing away with an abbot is that it is not the abbot that owns the land. It stays with the church. However, perhaps the villain can then insert his own man as Abbot.
 

Back
Top