Community support in genre

[Jo Zebedee]

Some thoughts about genre and community. I've put it in writing as that's my focus in the intial post but it might be interesting to see if it extends further.

I don't know very many people (in my real life) who read Space Opera. Hardly a shock, that. I don't have anyone I could sit down and chat about Rothfuss and what might come up in book three. My husband has a passing interest and is pretty well read in the genre but he's not passionate about it. (And I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, because I'm not - most of my relatives and friends have read at least one Space Opera novel recently and attended launches with Stormtroopers etc)

I have a lot of this sort of conversation these days:

'Did I hear you're a writer these days?'
'Well, trying to be...'
'And what do you write?'
'Science fiction.'

And then a pause. Not a mean one, just an I-don't-know-anything-about-that pause. And then they ask about the book and I tell them and it's all lovely. But I just know if I wrote something like Marian Keyes or Maeve Binchy no one would blink and it would all be so much more accessible.

What that means it here and on twitter and facebook I have a second community of people who write or know genre. (Which my non-genre facebook mates are very tolerant of me sharing). It feels like there are two mes out there in a way, both of whom need support and get it, one the personal me with my friends and family, one the writer me with my genre mates. Honestly, I think I need both - without someone to chew the sff cud with I'd be in a vacuum of writing and ideas. It's why I love my infrequent meet up with sf-loving Chronners where a browse in a bookshop actually leads to talking about books I know. And book-sharing actually happens.

It made me wonder if it's one reason communities online are so important? That, if you're into something niche (and I'm guessing Trolley-bus nerds have the same problem....) you need to find a niche to fit into, especially if you're writing it with all the obsession that brings?
'

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Even finding people that read ANY genre, never mind SF & F. (A couple of books a year doesn't count)
So yes specialist forums are good. But I've been using Internet since before websites existed and only found this place just last July 2014. Never mind SF & F, it's better than any book forum I ever was at.

Must be the people here.

I'm fortunate I have a wide range of reading tastes and there are seven avid readers (of different Genres) in the familiy.

 

[Parson]

Jo & Ray, I agree about this site. I am not a "real" writer. I've had a poem published and am about 2/3's through a first draft of a commentary, but among the aghast membership here I am less than a newby. But here is the only place I know people who like the kinds of books I like. The readers I know (my wife and daughter both are) are people who read romances or the latest thing (like 50 Shades etc) even if they do not qualify as even moderately well written or thought out. And incredibly my thoughts on what others have written are usually appreciated.

I am happy.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There was a time, when I was out and about more, when the kind of places I went and the kind of things I did put me in contact with a lot of science fiction and fantasy readers.* I would say that every one of my close friends during that period was an SFF fan. But there were still relatives** and neighbors and teachers and baseball coaches, who inevitably found out that I was a writer, mostly because my children would mention it to people in passing. And (as I mentioned in a response t a blog post by Phyrebrat) back when I first started getting published, long before Peter Jackson or J. K. Rowling made fantasy something people knew about, when people asked what I wrote and I said "fantasy" a lot of them heard me say "sexual fantasies." Very embarrassing. I really hated it when people asked me what I wrote.

Even to this day my closest friends, are SFF readers, although I don't see them often enough. Two of them have recently joined the Chronicles, Denise Tanaka and Jennifer Carson.

Now that I don't get out of the house so much, the people I communicate with the most, except for my immediate family, are Chrons members. I don't know what I would do without all of you.

_____
*I met my husband in that community, so we've always had that in common.

**Although my younger sister shared most of my interests including reading SFF and going to conventions, etc. not to the same extent that I was interested. And while my oldest daughter and my nieces always read and liked my books I could never really talk to them about books.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Being a hermit who dwells within a cavern on a small island in the North Sea, sustaining myself on nothing but seaweed soup, the odd raw seagull and the seven red-headed virgin girls the village sacrifices to me annually to appease my wrath, this doesn't happen to me much.

That said, it has happened once or twice, and it's not the ideal response. I think you're right about community online being helpful in that way.

It's especially irksome, perversely, as sci-fi and fantasy aren't ever considered niche in other ways. People love Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Battlestar Galactica, [not to mention all the superhero films] so when there's the shocked silence as if you've announced you're a professor of hard sado-masochism, it does make me wonder what TV and film people have been watching.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

seaweed soup, the odd raw seagull

Use dried seaweed to cook the seagulls. Much better.

People love WATCHING Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Battlestar Galactica, not to mention all the superhero films

Fixed it. Most of those people don't read those, some do because of the TV/Film, some read the stuff before a film/TV existed, so only a minority are reading at all and only a percentage of those any other SF & F.
Watching is more passive. Maybe some people don't have a built in Brain CGI to render the images in the text? I don't know. My brother watches lots, but since school has maybe read three books. I've no idea why.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

'Twas ever thus, Jo. The SF Community existed way before the internet.

 

[Vertigo]

I do wonder about it myself sometimes. It seems to me that people not into SFF consider watching an SFF film to be fine; just a bit of light entertainment. But when it comes to reading SFF is like it's some kind of perversion. It's very bizarre. And it's also why I'm here!!!!

 

[Toby Frost]

Ah, the enchanting moment in a hundred internet dates when "Wow, an actual author!" turns to "Oh, you write that sort of stuff". Basically, science fiction and comedy don't count, in the same way that finger-painting isn't high art. It's a bit like telling people that you're a musician, and then owning up that it's the swanee whistle. I wonder if I was simply to lie, what the best sort of book to write would be in order to look attractive?

On the other hand, I often find that I'm just not into geeky things as much as a lot of other people. I often find myself thinking things like "Yeah, I enjoyed Firefly, it wasn't bad", which given how the internet works is basically the same as telling its hardcore fans that you hated every minute. It's a problem I had with conventions: the feeling on day 3 of "I'm just not into this enough". I find that you're expected to have intense emotions, usually of thrilled excitement, about every new novel that you might concievably read. I don't have a constant rollercoaster of "feels" and I don't really want one, either.

I also find that I'm much more interested in the ideas behind a book than similar books to the sort of thing I'm trying to write. The discussions about other steampunk novels, or who's eviscerating who today in Historical Fantasy Epic X, don't interest me half as much as the actual history behind them.

 

[Venusian Broon]

And then a pause. Not a mean one, just an I-don't-know-anything-about-that pause. And then they ask about the book and I tell them and it's all lovely. But I just know if I wrote something like Marian Keyes or Maeve Binchy no one would blink and it would all be so much more accessible.

A couple of thoughts arise from your musings. Firstly I think any one who reads books for entertainment will occupy a niche of his or her own. There's too many books in the world and not enough hours in our lives. If I were to met a crime or romance writer, for example, I'm afraid I would probably give the same reaction - they are genres that I've just not got round to exploring at all (hell Jo, I still haven't got round to starting your book! ). Even in this idyll of my genre, there are huge holes in my knowledge. I counted up the number of writers in Chrons Author section that I haven't even read a single book and I'd admit that I came to thirty. (As for Firefly, Toby, I've only watched the movie and I was put off a bit by the 'Wild west in space' feel. 'Cowboys and injuns', the genre however it is disguised, has never fired me up with anything more than lukewarm enthusiasm on any medium.)

Secondly, despite me saying everyone's different, I think most book lovers get (or perhaps I should say did get?) news, hype and recommendations from one main source that we could all share - the Literature and Book sections of newspapers. And although over time, they have become more receptive to all genres, there are to me a certain sub-spectrum of types of books and authors they will tend to cover in detail. Whether it's modern literature and the sort of books you'd expect to get on a degree in literature in the broadsheets to (I'm guessing) the sort of books the Oprah or Richard and Judy would talk about in their book clubs in the mid-brow paper titles. (I haven't seen a red top in years, so I looked at The Sun online and they don't seem to have any specific book section - do Sun and Mirror readers not read books any more?)

It will interesting to see as the newspaper circulations continue to drop if this 'consensus' view on literature remains - I suspect so. I probably haven't bought a paper copy of the Guardian or Observer in five years, but I now log onto their website everyday and scan through all their articles to see what is happening in Liberal-land. On the other hand, rather then being broadcast about things, we are all moving into more social circles on the internet where discussion and word of mouth is more important than a big article about a Booker winning author in the Times.

Finally I've been obsessed by written SF for at least three and a half decades, and knew full well there was a community out there somewhere of fellow obsessives, but it took me till 2011 to finally find a forum that actually delivered - hell even found people that I could easily discuss some of the books I like! Which is pretty perplexing (I had so much time, surely to hunt out others before...what was happening? ). So to cut my ramblings short: Yes, to me online communities are very important!

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I think most book lovers get

As a kid and teen, in 1960s, really only browsing library shelves and looking for yellow books with a G.

In 45 years I've really only bought papers to look at Job adverts, House Rentals or House sales. I leaf through a local Limerick weekly paper a couple of times a month because my wife gets it free in local shop.
Stopped HiFi Mags early 1980s (became snake oil)
Stopped Electronics mags in 1990s (the good ones died or recycled old stuff)
Stopped Computer mags in 2000s (became nothing more than adverts)
Visiting Library dropped from weekly to annually or less. I can get a better selection now at 33c to €2 in Charity shops. The Reference section is rubbish now. I visit Library to see what is in their YA section and compare it to bookshops. Libraries seem now to only keep recent titles here.

From 1994 onwards the Internet gradually became my main reference source with also careful purchasing of some reference books.

 

[Venusian Broon]

As a kid and teen, in 1960s, really only browsing library shelves and looking for yellow books with a G.

Throw in that unmistakeable smell of floor cleaner that Edinburgh city council used in all their public buildings, mixed with the aroma of slowly ageing books and...I'm getting vivid flashbacks already.

 

[Juliana]

I have a sprinkling of way-back-before-writing friends who read SFF, so there was always someone to talk to about reading. Plus I have parents who read me Tolkien and Asimov when I was a kid...

But after I started writing, the Chrons became an invaluable space. Non of my old mates are writers, so just that bit is puzzling to them. And then I joined the SCBWI (Society for Childrens Book Writers and Illustrators), which is a really active community, but although there are plenty of us writing SFF, it seems that most of us write realistic fiction, so I often get a blink and a 'oh, that's nice, I enjoyed Harry Potter.' I'm the only one in my critique group, for instance, who writes fantasy.

On the other hand, there are few of us on the Chrons who seem to be writing middle grade and YA.

So in my 'writing life' I often feel divided between the two communities, with very little overlap: the children's book crowd and the SFF novelists on the Chrons. Both communities have been invaluable, and there's no way I would have progressed as far as I have without them.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

unmistakeable smell of floor cleaner ... I'm getting vivid flashbacks already.

You weren't meant to eat it or sniff it. Probably had LSD in it. I spent all too short a time in Edinburgh (less than a day, I was staying in Comrie).

writing middle grade and YA

I guess maybe me. It's certainly not very "Adult" SF & F". Maybe I should look into this org you speak of.

 

[ratsy]

I think places like this are very important for us genre people. I have no one to talk to about SFF for the most part. One of my brothers reads Sanderson, but he is more of a trekkie kind of guy, which I have a passing interest in, nothing more. I read a lot, but I don't watch Game of Thrones or Battlestar Galactica, which I do have friends who watch. And I think you are right Jo, people have a strange misconception of SFF, but I think it is changing slowly over the past decade or so. We have it becoming a lot more mainstream with the LOTR movies, Hobbit, Ender's Game, Star Wars revival, Star Trek reboot, all which bring the genre's to many viewers. I'm not sure how well this translates to readership, but I think it does help.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Maybe I'm luckier than some of you, but in my professional life at least I've always been lucky enough to find others who share my passions for reading sci fi and fantasy. At school it was much the same. But strangely at university it was the exact opposite situation that arose.

I joined the trekkies down at Otago Uni and quickly gave up. I love Trek - have done ever since I was a kid. But when I joined to campus trekkies club and discovered they were building a replica of the Enterprise bridge in a club room I realised that I wasn't that committed after all. Worse they decided I was just a sort of peripheral sci fi guy - not really dedicated enough to be a true trekkie. And reading the OP I can't help but feel that they would be the ones writing it and saying how little support they felt out there and how they valued online communities as well - while people like me were staring at them as if they were strange.

I suspect that this whole thing is a continuum rather than a divide.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Juliana]

Maybe I should look into this org you speak of

The SCBWI has a British Isles section; not sure how well-represented in Ireland, as I've never really looked. But they do a lot of conferences, which are great for actually getting out there and meeting folk, and the people I've met through them have all without exception been incredibly supportive and open-armed. It's a nice vibe.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

The irony is of course that most YA readers absolutely love fantasy, and that whole idea of being transported into another world.

It must be that snobbery is rife still in the lit biz.

 

[hardsciencefanagain]

It is,Steve.
I posted something on it: the phrase that i remember from De Wereld draait Door was something like:Even though it is Science Fiction*,it is a damn
fine novel.In a program devoted to books: ""This book is Science fiction,but don't let that put you off:it's good,and it's about people"".
Italics mine,obviously
To the general audience ,and the litcritters,""quality"" and ""Sf"" are word that can't ever appear in the same sentence
regarding post ten,by Ray:i stopped buying Scientifc American at a given moment,it had more ads than my sister's VOGUE.

 

[Zebra Wizard]

I've found theres always been a distain for fantasy. Not so much as Sci-fi and hollywood reflects this.

I'm surprised that sci-fi would get the same reaction though, sure there still some animosity against it. But sci-fi media is prevelant everywhere, plenty of movies gain great success and there is definately a large audience for it.

I also have the issue with myself writing fantasy, I avoid telling people that it's fantasy, I just call it alternate world fiction.

But i think you will always get that raised eyebrow response if they are not familiar/fans of the genre. If someone told me they were writing romance I would have the exact same reaction, and the chance of someone who is interested in genre fiction is going to be very small. None of my family members have any interest in what i write about (None of them have or will see lord of the rings)