Horses and tunnels and long-legged -- oh. No. Just horses and tunnels.

[Hex]

Help me again?

So, you're a teenage girl standing at the end of a tunnel in semi-darkness. Thundering along the tunnel is a group of horses (with riders) coming to catch you.

You have: a jacket, a backpack, possibly some fuel capsules from a camping stove, and there are creepers trailing from the trees around you.

Can you freak out the first horse so badly you give yourself time to run away? Or are you dooooomed?

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

If it's in semi-darkness, the horses might not see, for example, a flapping jacket, but could she perhaps ignite one of the fuel capsules? The fire/explosion in a tunnel would freak out most horses and give her time to run away. Of course, she might blow her own hand off in the process....

Depending how dark it is, I would be inclined to lie down along the bottom wall of the tunnel, using the jacket to cover face and hands so they don't show up as white, and stay perfectly still. It is really hard to spot someone in even partial darkness if they are a) motionless, b) not showing eyes and teeth and c) not at the height you expect them to be. Of course, if they already have her in sight this might not work unless she can make it look like she's run out of the tunnel and turned sharp left/right before dropping down and hiding back in the tunnel. Depends how much of a lead she has on them, and if the tunnel is straight/long enough.

 

[Droflet]

Just a simple thought, Hex. Animals, both of the two and four legged variety can be startled. A crouched figure suddenly rising and issuing a deafening scream should, cause the horses to grind to a halt, and perhaps even buck, throwing the riders to the ground. A simple thought. Make of it what you will. Good luck.

 

[The Judge]

I like Kerry's idea of lying down at the very edge of the tunnel if it's dark enough, since even if they are riding abreast, the horses will occupy the centre part of it, leaving the sides free. And I recall reading that horses will avoid trampling something if they possibly can, eg jumping over bodies, though Kerry would know if that's true, and I suppose that might itself give away her position if the horses shied from her.

Don't forget though, if it's daylight and she's at the end of the tunnel, she'd be easily seen against the light, so she'd need to do anything several yards in. If it's dusk, nighttime, then staying in the tunnel probably gives her no advantage.

What kind of tunnel are we talking about? Road, rail? In the latter there are regular niches which might give enough room for her to squeeze into without being seen. If it's a pedestrian tunnel, it's unlikely to be high enough to allow mounted riders to gallop through, I'd have thought.

What is the terrain outside the tunnel like? Presumably there's a hill, hence the tunnel itself? If it's immediately very steep and overgrown with trees, then she's going to be quicker getting up it than the horses would be, anyway, so might not need to do anything to give herself more time.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

And I recall reading that horses will avoid trampling something if they possibly can, eg jumping over bodies, though Kerry would know if that's true,

Generally true. I think the hoof prints across my daughter's body protector (yes, she was wearing it at the time) were probably the result of an accidental course miscalculation by her young horse!

 

[Hex]

Yikes.

I like that idea... the only problem is that she hides from someone similar later on, and I'd been hoping there was an alternative this time. Maybe I will investigate ignition of one of the capsules without actually, you know, doing it in real life.

 

[Mr Orange]

Hex, if you could change the camping stove to a spirit stove (like a trangia or similar), then she could believably have a bottle of meths in her bag which i would imagine would produce a molotov cocktail kind of weapon. of course, with meths being a safe, clean burning fuel, i'm not sure how much of an explosion it would give. there are petrol stoves (MSR and others) that would allow her to have petrol in her bag, but she might have to be a more serious hiker for that to be believable...

 

[Dave]

I'm speaking about a subject I have absolutely no knowledge (always a bad thing) so my apologies first, but (you knew there was a but coming) I think it would depend on the horses. If this is Farah and Antonia's pony that they ride on Saturdays, that Daddy bought them last Summer, then it might be startled. If it is a War Horse that has been in battle and among thunderous cannons and gunfire, then it isn't going to be startled (even by the Molotov cocktail that Mr Orange is throwing at you.)

 

[Piousflea84]

Freaking out the horses in order to escape seems like a bad idea. As Dave pointed out, any well-trained horse (police horse, war horse) will be very difficult to startle and will quickly resume the chase. Even if the horses are poorly trained and they startle, it doesn't take long for mounted pursuers to catch up with a pedestrian.

It seems more plausible for a fleeing protagonist to hide from mounted pursuit, instead of attempting to confront them. You mentioned trees - vegetation is always the safest hiding option for any on-foot protagonist. There's always a log to hide behind, a pile of leaves to dive under, a bunch of bushes to squeeze into... and if you can climb up a tree without being seen or leaving an obvious trail, you are safe.

In real life it's incredibly difficult to track someone through a forest unless you have bloodhounds. Foliage is the fugitive's friend.

 

[Hex]

Thank you

I have a slight issue in that I'd like the character to do something different at this stage from what she does later (hide), but perhaps I need to reconsider the scene as a whole and forget the horses... or adapt the horses... or introduce a tiger...

 

[Ray McCarthy]

A fit person carrying very little can out run horses if they have enough head start and the riders have no remounts.

 

[cgsmith]

A fit person carrying very little can out run horses if they have enough head start and the riders have no remounts.

Yeah, a fit person carrying very little can beat a horse over distance, even without the head start. But its only happened twice since 1980 in the horse v man marathon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon (though i don't really know what the fitness level of these people are, don't think they are olympians.

Also over short distances horses are faster. That Bolt fella could run 28mph while horses gallop at 25 - 30, according to a quick google.

Either way while its totally true it seemed far fetched enough for me to go and google it. Personally I wouldn't suggest having your character run away from a bunch of horses.

If it's in semi-darkness, the horses might not see, for example, a flapping jacket, but could she perhaps ignite one of the fuel capsules? The fire/explosion in a tunnel would freak out most horses and give her time to run away. Of course, she might blow her own hand off in the process....

Depending how dark it is, I would be inclined to lie down along the bottom wall of the tunnel, using the jacket to cover face and hands so they don't show up as white, and stay perfectly still. It is really hard to spot someone in even partial darkness if they are a) motionless, b) not showing eyes and teeth and c) not at the height you expect them to be. Of course, if they already have her in sight this might not work unless she can make it look like she's run out of the tunnel and turned sharp left/right before dropping down and hiding back in the tunnel. Depends how much of a lead she has on them, and if the tunnel is straight/long enough.

This however I think is a good idea. Nice tense moments when the hooves are coming down all around your character. I don't think there is anything wrong with the character having to hide twice. It depends how you are going to do it really. If the circumstances are really similar, and the execution will be the same, then maybe you are right. But if its a pounding of hooves here and something else there I don't think thats bad. Idk

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Also over short distances horses are faster.

I'm not sure how long a horse can gallop, but I think much shorter distances than film / TV suggests unless you want to permanently damage the poor beast. Certainly horses are faster than people when galloping.

On Flat clear terrain horses have advantage, except on longer distances, Horses can't go at all on some terrain and slowly on others. A person can move from a standing start quicker too.
If the horsemen are big well fed and muscled strong men, have food, bedrolls, cloaks, packs, weapons and some light armour they are at a big disadvantage to a fit runner.

I'm not sure how much an effect heat / humidity or daylight vs dark has either.

 

[Kylara]

I'd say horses will always win over distance. Even walking they are faster

I would suggest if you have strong vines nearby you could potentially damage riders or at least unseat them. Potential for unconscious riders. Or you could go for the horses and get them to peck and go down, not fun for horses or riders. Just string vines across entrance and then run into the forest (preferably up and through treetops). Also fire can upset horses, especially in a tunnel, extra smoke, makes it darker, could couple with vines across exit, some of the horse may floor out about fire + tunnel. Could get smoke inhalation injuries for riders, so unconscious etc. Fuel on forest foliage in tunnel would give plenty of nasty smoke and flames.

 

[TitaniumTi]

If she's in a rail tunnel, might there be an abandoned rail cart or similar, that she could start rolling back down the tracks towards them? Perhaps someone with greater knowledge of railway technology could comment on this.

Edited to add: I'm not sure that horses and riders would be thundering along a railway tunnel. Darkness and the poor footing of railway ballast sound like a dangerous combination for riding at speed.

Alternatively, if the terrain is mountainous -- and hence the need for a tunnel -- she might escape by turning back to climb above the tunnel, thus forcing her pursuers to leave their horses and chase her on foot. As an added advantage, doubling back might temporarily throw her pursuers off the trail.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I'd agree with Kylara and cgsmith. Although it's possible for a human to outrun a horse over a long distance, it's not likely, especially in the circumstances of Hex's character, chased by a group of horses. There are very few terrains a horse cannot travel on and obstacles like walls, deep ditches, or fences, which would seriously slow a runner, can be easily jumped by a fit horse.

For interest, look up some of the reruns of Mantracker, a TV series where a Canadian cowboy/tracker and his sidekick have to follow and track a pair of very fit people. The people have a map showing them where the finish is, but Mantracker doesn't. They get a head start and he doesn't know where they started from, just when. He rides his horse over unbelievable terrain, swims it across rivers, climbs mountains, etc. The only terrain he doesn't try is deadfall (masses of felled trees which lie haphazardly and can break a horse's leg).

Kylara's vine is a great idea, though. Or she might have something in her pack she could use, like rope?

 

[cgsmith]

I'm not sure how long a horse can gallop, but I think much shorter distances than film / TV suggests unless you want to permanently damage the poor beast. Certainly horses are faster than people when galloping.

On Flat clear terrain horses have advantage, except on longer distances, Horses can't go at all on some terrain and slowly on others. A person can move from a standing start quicker too.
If the horsemen are big well fed and muscled strong men, have food, bedrolls, cloaks, packs, weapons and some light armour they are at a big disadvantage to a fit runner.

I'm not sure how much an effect heat / humidity or daylight vs dark has either.

Galloping distances are measured in miles so they can gallop pretty far.

Apparently we are pretty much unrivaled as a species for heat management, so I guess heat would be an advantage to us humans - I did notice that the two years when humans won the marathon were described as hot. I think I read somewhere that hunters can chase down gazelles and such in the African plains because we have the ability to loose heat better. The gazelles run and rest and run and rest and are faster than us but eventually get so hot that the human - when he catches up - can just walk up to it and make the kill. I'm like 90% sure about this, definitely worth a google before repeating.

I can't really think of any terrain situations that a human would do better than a horse - Like mud would affect both in a similar way, horses hooves would sink deeper I suppose - except TitaniumTi's idea about the place being mountainous is pretty good. I never met a horse that could climb like a human. Although I am sure the riders could dismount and climb after her - maybe some stay with the horses - could be a good way to even the odds for a more plausible fight for escape, and the character would have the high ground over the attackers.

 

[Piousflea84]

Yeah, a fit person carrying very little can beat a horse over distance, even without the head start. But its only happened twice since 1980 in the horse v man marathon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon (though i don't really know what the fitness level of these people are, don't think they are olympians.

Also over short distances horses are faster. That Bolt fella could run 28mph while horses gallop at 25 - 30, according to a quick google.

Either way while its totally true it seemed far fetched enough for me to go and google it. Personally I wouldn't suggest having your character run away from a bunch of horses.



This however I think is a good idea. Nice tense moments when the hooves are coming down all around your character. I don't think there is anything wrong with the character having to hide twice. It depends how you are going to do it really. If the circumstances are really similar, and the execution will be the same, then maybe you are right. But if its a pounding of hooves here and something else there I don't think thats bad. Idk

You can't compare sprint speeds like Usain Bolt's 28mph to sustained speeds like a "25-30mph gallop". Bolt can't run at 28mph for longer than 100 meters or so, a horse can gallop at 30mph for over a mile.

The current world record 1-mile run for a human is Hicham El Garroj at 3:43.13 (16.1mph), while the world record Kentucky Derby run is Secretariat (1:36.4 at the mile; 1:59.4 at 1.25 miles - 37.69mph). That is *over twice the speed* of the human. More importantly, even a not-so-great horse could run at ~20mph for a mile, which no human can possibly match.

The man vs horse race only becomes a fair matchup over a marathon-like distance of 20-24 miles... even then the human has only a very small percent chance of victory (twice over 35 years) and this is completely dependent on hot weather causing the horse to tire out. Horses are not good at handling extreme heat; this is why people in very hot climates ride camels or donkeys.


If you're considering terrain, rough terrain slows a human MUCH more dramatically than it slows a horse. Try walking through brush; it is painfully slow and you risk breaking an ankle. A horse with good shoes can move much more easily than a human. Horses can also ford shallow water much more easily than a human. The only exception is vertical terrain; a human can climb rocks and clamber up steep slopes that a horse cannot.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Apparently we are pretty much unrivaled as a species for heat management

Are you a camel?
Of course they cheat. Camels are odder than you can imagine. They store water in their blood (the hump(s) is/are fat really) and let their body temperature rise. They are like a Dune Stillsuit, they capture moisture in the their breath!

A good road and a chariot is less tiring for a horse than rider + baggage and faster. Probably one reason for Roman roads (and making them flat). The Mongols each had several remounts so moved faster than enemies.

 

[Piousflea84]

Re: heat management:

Of course humans are not unrivaled as a species. Archaea, Thermophilus bacteria, and tardigrades can all survive near-boiling or boiling temperatures.

Humans are believed to have among the highest heat endurance of any large multicellular creatures, as long as we have access to water and salt. Humans sweat more effectively than any other extant mammal. (Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=kiseoBGEKqAC) Humans also have the ability to make containers for carrying water, and we can drink while running. This gave our prehistoric ancestors the ability to run down much stronger and faster prey simply by running under the hot midday sun. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting)

A camel's maximal heat tolerance is similar to a human's. It can't survive 50C temperatures like an insect or microbe can, it's limited to 40-42C much like a person. The difference is that a camel is incredibly water-efficient, it's completely adapted for the water-deprived environment. A human working in 40C weather will require large amounts of water and salt per hour. A camel requires only 1/4 as much water as a human despite weighing 4x as much, making it ~16x more efficient.