Female Forester

Phyrebrat

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Hello,

I'm finding there are quite a few independent and strong women in Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth that are not necessarily landed gentry or outlaws.

In SG I want one of the MCs (probably non-pov, though) to be a forester but I'd like it to be a woman as opposed to some subservient wench wife of a male forester. I'd planned on working into the narrative some contention about the fact that she's a forester and I'm relatively happy taking some broad artisitc license in making her so, but for all you Med-heads, I was wondering how far this would stretch credibility for you?

Would you be one of those people who 'throw the book across the room'?

pH
 
I was wondering how far this would stretch credibility for you?

It wouldn't at all. I'm actually surprised you'd think it was an issue.

Women were restricted when it came to political power, but could achieve anywhere outside of that. Additionally, high death rates meant that it couldn't have been uncommon to find households run by widows. Some widows became renown as brewers.

Also, it's well known that a number of people lived away from population centres and lived very independent lives as small holders. They certainly were not outlaws.

In short, any profession or position is available - but the more politically important it is, the more likely that men would grab for it first.

Additionally, class plays a key role - noble women exists to procreate heirs, but commoners could serve the trades as freely as they could manage.
 
Med-head reporting for duty.

Do you know what a forester does? That's not a sarky question, it's genuine, because I have no idea what the job-spec involves in whatever period you are setting this particular scene. If it's chopping down vast oaks alone and having to wield huge axes, then I'm going to chuck the book if the MC is a 7 stone slim girl with wrists like limp rhubarb. In the absence of power tools and technology, the reason some things were seen as a man's job is simply because most women lack the upper body strength required for the work. Consequently even if they can do the job, they might take longer or eg produce less coal per shift, therefore aren't worth the same to an employer.

Also, although peasant women worked, and worked bloody hard because they had to, they didn't work in isolation. A community organises itself to share work-loads as far as possible, so if she is doing what is seen as man's work, who is doing the woman's work she "should" be doing? And why is she doing this forestry work instead of eg tending the pigs and the garden, spinning yarn, preparing food, brewing the beer? If you can answer those questions, you should be fine eg her father/husband/brother has chopped a tree down on himself and is disabled, so can't work and she has to because otherwise they would starve. If you're just making the forester a woman by way of social commentary or to make a feminist point, I'd be a lot more sceptical. People did revolt against the roles imposed by society, but society has a way of getting back at them and usually wins.

Also, how well paid are the foresters? What do they sell and where? Are the other men working alone, or do they co-operate and help each other, or are they employed by the local lord or local saw mill? The better the wage or likely earnings, or the more prestigious the position, the more restrictions will be placed on women doing the work and therefore the worse abuse she will receive for trying to do it. Also, she might not be judged for doing the heavy work if it's that or starve, but she would be judged by the rest of the village if she allowed the female side of things to fall eg if she didn't have the clean house, clean clothes etc.

Basically, do some research into a forester's job and where this woman is living and how she would be paid. And don't forget that a forest was a legal term as well as a description of a lot of trees -- eg the New Forest -- and rights in a such a forest were strictly controlled.


And just as a side issue, being married doesn't mean being a subservient wench wife. Marriages are and were partnerships. Many are unequal partnerships, but that cuts both ways -- the domineering wife is more than just a comedian's punchline -- so there's no reason to assume this woman would be a doormat to her forester husband, especially if she chose her own husband. And the lower down the social scale she is, the more likely that is to have happened.
 
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If it's chopping down vast oaks alone and having to wield huge axes, then I'm going to chuck the book if the MC is a 7 stone slim girl with wrists like limp rhubarb.
It might be coppicing, ensuring young trees are not ring barked, deer are not poached? Supervision of cutting of smaller wood and baking it to make charcoal?
Making charcoal?

I have no idea. It certainly wouldn't be the same as 19th C. US lumberjack or modern forestry worker.
 
Told off by TJ and Big B in one thread; that's gotta deserve some kind of award. :D

Thanks all. I'll reply properly when I get a moment from these hellchildren but as I'm in between schools, I have a moment.

Brian: You shouldn't be surprised at my ignorance; you know how green I am when it comes to Medievilry! Seriously, tho' I just thought I'd better check in here before doing a load of abortive research when I found out Chronners would find the idea abhorrent.

TJ; I wasn't having a female forester as a female just for kicks; it's more the case that in the 1178 section, I need a pagan 'priestess' (for want of a better word) who can have a 'beard'. She needs to befriend the abbot's messenger Gilbert who wants to turn the analogue of Knowlton to an abbey in an attempt to suggest the ground there is cursed. I just wanted to have a robust reason for her living in the woods.

To be honest it could be a male forester but it would make characterisation easier if it was a woman.

Or...it doesn't have to be a forester at all. I just feel that someone who has a connection to Nature would be more inclined to see the sanctity of it.

And (TJ, did you know Judge Rudd is a forester ;) ).

pH
 
Coppicing is possible, though it's going to be arranged by whoever owns the land, or by the person acting as his estate manager (that's a modern term, obviously) and I can't see that person giving instructions to a woman unless there is some good reason, ie a widow taking over her husband's job.

Preventing ring-barking seems more something that would happen where trees are being grown as crops, ie modern times, rather than simply using what is already there. They did plant more trees to replenish supply, especially oaks of course, but I'm pretty sure that's a post-medieval practice, when our navy really required it.

Deer poaching would almost certainly be a capital offence, and consequently stopping it would require someone used to handling weapons to defend himself if need be.

Charcoal would be usually made by specialist charcoal burners, not a forester.


One thing that has occurred to me is that ship-building required specific trees. You didn't just walk into a forest and chop down the nearest oak, you had to find one that curved in the right way, or had the main branch coming out at the requisite angle to form the bit the ship-builder wanted. I'm being very vague as I know nothing about ship-building, so I don't know which bits they are (keels??). I think I've got some info about it somewhere, so I can check if it's an avenue you want to explore. That person would need to know about trees, but it's a job that would involve walking around lots of woods, not being located in just one, and isn't a job given to a woman, though she might take on her father's job if eg he's too infirm to do it.


Ah, you've just replied as I've been writing. So basically you need a woman who lives in a wood c1178.

Ray's charcoal burner is one option, but again I'm not sure if she would remain in one spot for years on end, or whether she would have to move between woods. A "wise" woman, ie the local apothecary for the village, though that might be a bit too cliched.

Will have a think about it further


Judge Rudd a forester? You mean in the Forest? A commoner or a verderer?! (He should be a fisherman...)
 
charcoal burner is one option, but again I'm not sure if she would remain in one spot for years on end
Willow coppiced and made to charcoal could take place in one large wood indefinitely. Not sure if hazel also used. But coppiced willow is used today.
I think there were different kinds of charcoal made. It needs a lot of watching to keep it starved without burning up (ash) or going out. Not a forester, but would involve a family or small team. One person would camp and mind the mound. The others that cut the wood, build mound and earth it up might very well be part time labourers normally working on something else.
Charcoal was very important for indoor heating, ovens, forges etc as there was no coal. Also later ground as part of gunpowder I think, but not in 1178. Actually writing or drawing (the main modern use) would have been rare.
 
Okay. That's great. I appreciate your advises. The charcoaler could be quite viable in terms of seer-ing/scrying and a semi nomadic existence could make her hard to pin down for witchcraft. I might seek permission to approach the bench over the weekend once I've done more research and submit a new List of Documents and see what your knee jerk reaction is. If that's alright.

Judge Rudd should've been a Santa in my opinion... Rudd are tiddlers and he'd be hungry half the time.

pH
 
That's fine by me.

Meanwhile, if you can get to a library, one of the Ellis Peter Brother Cadfael books has a charcoal burner sub-plot, and that's set only about 25 years earlier than yours so you can crib her descriptions! Just checked -- it's The Devil's Novice. (I so wish I'd never given my complete collection away. They're wonderful reads when you want something light and comforting -- like chicken broth between covers.)
 
Arthur Ransome has a nice description, it was from a bygone age apparently even when the book was written. I think Swallowdale rather than swallows and amazons. It's nearly identical to the Cadfael description in technique, the setting and characters different, and the two old men (father and son) are just tending it. They have a traditional style of shelter that probably was mediaeval in origin.

I so wish I'd never given my complete collection away
You need help. I'm not parting with mine.
 
I just thought I'd better check in here before doing a load of abortive research when I found out Chronners would find the idea abhorrent.

No worries - the bottom line is that if you want a woman who lives alone in a woodland, it's easily justified. I'd suggest you just write the story, and adapt the background to work with the developing needs of that character. Btw, have you finished Pillars yet?? Simply that there's a possible template for what you're looking for in that. Or not, as the case may be. :)
 
No I'm 500 pages into Pillars. Tom Builder has just gone to the quarry for the first time since getting the job of building his cathedral. I'll finish it and then get on Cadfael; I think my sis has them all.

I am a terribly slow reader.

pH
 
My name is Anno and I AM a Forester/Arborist!
Most 'primitive'societies in history who lived in woodland would need a good knowledge of the habitat and creatures in it,in fact a specific knowledge of deer was prevalent in hunter gathering scenarios,also medicines came from bark and plants including some we still use today.
Food came from the forest and the large clearances of woodland became part of our growth as a species,keeping livestock and eventually arable weeds,there is also ample evidence for shamanistic practices and beliefs that used deer and wolves for example as iconic spirit guides.

A good source in the UK for this is the Archaeologist Francis Priors books.
 
I've just put on my Nomex shirt, but a description of the sort of thing you're looking for might be found in D&D rules under the heading "ranger". (Probably without the magical angle, unless you want to take it that way.) Someone who has made a point of, and has some sort of natural talent for, living off the land in harmony with nature - in this case in a forested area. And would probably notice out-of-place things (a broken twig, a leaf with the damp side upwards...) where the city-bred probably wouldn't even notice the things.

I see no reason at all for such a person not to be female. Incidentally, I offer a potential plot element. For fairly obvious reasons, such a woman's natural stealth abilities in her habitual terrain might be adversely affected at certain times, for which she would have to plan...
 
After a bit of a think, I'm heading in the direction of a charcoaler simply because it will have a nice link to the nebulous nature of the character, and also give a good enough reason for her to be in the woods, on the move sometimes. More importantly, I think it will allow for a more flexible route on possible outcomes for her; I think I may be writing myself into a corner if I used a forester.

pH
 

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