Commas before quotation marks

[TitaniumTi]

A long, long time ago and far, far away (well, actually, not that far away), I was taught punctuation.

I think I remember being taught to use commas before quotations marks. That's simple enough in dialogue, but I'm not sure in other writing.

I think it makes sense to use a comma after words like "suggest" or "prefer", because they act like speech tags. For example, "I would prefer, 'The Colonist'."

I'm less sure when the speech-tag-like verb is followed by other words. For example:
"I would prefer to call the ship, 'The Colonist'."

I'm not at all sure about punctuation when the sentence does not include a speech tag. For example:
"The ship's name is, 'The Colonist'."

The commas do not seem at all correct in this sentence:
"I think it makes sense to use a comma after words like, 'suggest' or, 'prefer'."

What is right and what is wrong?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think there are two types of quotation marks here - those that donate dialogue attribution (which do need a comma or fullstop wihin the mark*) and those which denote a name ** there is absolutely no need for a comma before suggest and prefer.

* the fullstop or comma depends on if you're using a saidism or an action - Hex has a useful thread on this

**but in the egs given, I don't think you need the quote marks at all, and the italics would suffice.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

I can't agree that "suggest" and "prefer" are speech tags at all.

Let's try a real speech tag, like "said."

________________________________________


"What did you say?" Fred asked.

"I said 'Hello,'" Mary replied.

_____________________________________________

That's how I would do it.

I agree that you don't need the quotation marks at all in your examples.

__________________________________________


"I would prefer The Colonist."

"I would prefer to call the ship The Colonist."

"The ship's name is The Colonist."

"I think it makes sense to use a comma after words like 'suggest' or 'prefer.'"

____________________________________________________________________

That's how I would do it.

(Note that I do not agree with that last sentence at all!)

 

[Gonk the Insane]

I think the comma before quotation marks is used for speech, but only when the dialogue attribution precedes the speech. So:

He said, "The ship's name is The Colonist."

"The ship's name is The Colonist," he said.

I'm not sure how commonly (comma-ly) used it is. I have a feeling it might have fallen out of fashion. I do recall seeing it frequently in early SFF novels.

 

[TitaniumTi]

Thank you all. That's cleared up 40 plus years of confusion. I won't say how much the plus is.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Yes, you don't want a comma in those examples. The sentence construction there is subject-verb-object, which should not be separated by commas. "The ship's name is The Colonist." Think "name is this" -- subject verb object. You wouldn't say "name is, this", for instance "My name is Fred" would not be "My name is, Fred", so you wouldn't put a comma into your ship sentence either. And the same for the other ones you have there. The name is the object in all of those, whether the object that the subject acts on or the object of the preposition. It's only befuddling you because you're using the quotation marks that appear to set it aside more than it really ought to be. Go with italics.

 

[Brian G Turner]

"The ship's name is, 'The Colonist'."

From what I've seen, you italicise proper names, such as for ships, but you wouldn't use quote marks.

"I think it makes sense to use a comma after words like, 'suggest' or, 'prefer'."

In this example, you could equally either use quote marks, or italics.

 

[Ursa major]

There is another issue here -- a different, but related, one to that which TDZ's clear explanation is about -- and one not so easily solved (because, 'it depends...'). This is the issue of whether punctuation should always be placed before a closing quotation mark.

In normal** dialogue, the answer to that question is yes:

"I told you so," she said. (Correct)
"I told you so", she said. (Incorrect)
​

However, with other uses of quotation marks, things are not so clear cut. To... er... quote Wiki:

In all forms of English, question marks and exclamation points are placed either inside or outside the quotation marks depending on whether they apply to the whole sentence or only to the quoted material. In British English, periods and commas are almost always treated the same way. In American English, periods and commas are almost always placed inside the quotation marks regardless.

Just to muddy the waters, that Wiki article then goes on to say:

According to the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed. "The British style is strongly advocated by some American language experts. In defense of nearly a century and a half of the American style, however, it may be said that it seems to have been working fairly well and has not resulted in serious miscommunication. Whereas there clearly is some risk with question marks and exclamation points, there seems little likelihood that readers will be misled concerning the period or comma." It goes on to recommend British practice for fields such as linguistics and literary criticism.

** - 'Normal', as in dialogue not including other quoted material.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

"I told you so", she said. (Incorrect)

Though the only place I EVER have seen the "so called British practice" is one book on punctuation. I can't find an example of it in any novel I have. I suspect it's PURELY for a quotation and not dialogue.
Also while "dialog" and 'dialogue' is supposed to be USA vs UK, it in fact seems to be a publishing house choice as to if single or double quotes is used for dialogue. I also find it curious of all the books I have that cover punctuation that dialogue gets less text than the typical internet 'blog' on the subject. Books covering punctuation rather than writing fiction (and grammar and esp, Grammar checkers) seem orientated to Journalism, reports, proposals, manuals etc and rarely more than passing mention of fiction. I've read (and have a few) fine books on writing or publishing fiction (or both), but again dialogue gets barely a page or two.

 

[Ursa major]

I suspect it's PURELY for a quotation and not dialogue.

Er, that's what I said.

However, I wanted to stress that there are punctuation issues with quotation marks and the way in which they are handled may** changes depending on whether the text inside the quotation marks is dialogue or not. If someone was not aware of these associated*** issues, they may fall foul of them.

As for examples of the British English practice, I had originally dropped one or two into that post, but they went missing during editing. But I do use them elsewhere on the Chrons. (By the way, the following did not count as an example, but this time, it may: "'it depends...')."....

** - Depending on the context, such as whether British English or American English was being used.

*** - The particular quotation mark used has no impact at all on where a comma might go and so is not an associated issue. For this reason, I didn't quote the Wiki article on that. Besides, there's another thread (possible more than one other thread) that deals with this quite separate (in the sense of being orthogonal) issue.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Er, that's what I said.

I thought that was possible, but I wasn't entirely sure. So thus I was essentially agreeing with you The book were I read it was very confusing and what I wrote was more my reaction to that than your post.
Sometimes my writing lacks clarity. Sometimes I do too. I guess too it's important to understand difference between quote, dialog, quote in dialog and quote as epigram as they all have differing rules. Also I struggle with character in dialogue reading some written document* or reporting what someone said (which is really a quote) or just quoting in a general sense, (or recitation or singing which are really just longer quotes).

[* reading it in "thought" different from dialogue?]

 

[Ursa major]

Sometimes my writing lacks clarity. Sometimes I do too.

Join the club.

 

[TitaniumTi]

Thanks everyone, I've learned something two things in this thread. Firstly, I've been mistaken in my use of commas before non-saidism quotation marks and, secondly, those non-saidism quotation marks are not needed in a lot of cases.

I think quotation marks are necessary in the example below. From what I've read above, there is no need for a comma, although I might use a colon. Am I correct?

What is the next line of this poem?
"I'm nobody! Who are you?"

"Are you nobody?"

No. The answer is "Are you nobody, too?"

 

[J Riff]

I dunnooo, I can't stand a comma leading to 'he said', as in: "I guess so," he said. I want "I guess so." he said. Because that sentence ends. Ends I tell you, and wants a period. Best not to think about it anymore I guess, and let the editor fix it however they like.

 

[TitaniumTi]

I want "I guess so." he said. Because that sentence ends.

Yes, but "he said" isn't a sentence. We need to know what he said, in the same sentence.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

"I guess so," he said. I want "I guess so." he said.

No, the sentence ends after 'said' so there has to be a comma.

I think these examples might be correct.

1) "I'm not sure," he said.
2) "I'm not sure, but perhaps you are right," he said.
3) "I'm not sure," he said, "but perhaps you are right."
4) "I'm not sure, Jim," he said. "Can you come over, Bill, and check?"

If there is a name not at the beginning, it has a comma in front. Though maybe only if at closing quote?
If there is an action described or a new sentence after 'said' then the tag ends with a period. If the speech tag can be inserted at a comma splice, then the tag ends with a comma not a period if there is no action narration after the tag.
If there is a paragraph of dialog then the tag goes at first sentence so comma in front of quote before tag and period after (see 4), which I presume is why 1 is correct and "I'm not sure." he said. is 100% wrong. 3 and 4 are tricky, I often get them wrong. I think the trick is to see if it is example 2 to decide if the fragment after the tag is same sentence (comma) or new sentence.

 

[J Riff]

"I think I'll disagree, and that's my final word." he said.
A comma implies the sentence goes on, is unfinished, that there's something left to add.
"That's the end." she intoned.
"Not with a comma at the end it's not," he chuckled.

 

[Ursa major]

No one is disputing that

I think I'll disagree, and that's my final word.
​

and

That's the end.
​

can each stand on its own as a complete sentence. What isn't a complete sentence is

He said.
​

as although it has a subject (He) and a verb (said) it hasn't got an object but requires one. And that object is what was said, hence:

"I think I'll disagree, and that's my final word," he said.​

 

[J Riff]

"Oh, I know it's right, I just don't like it much. Sometimes. It looks wrong. But we bravely soldier on, obeying the rules of grammar and punctuation, or we suffer the ignominity of being corrected and sent back to the textbook to get it right, once and for all, and no mistake," he muttered grumpily.

 

[tinkerdan]

"I think I'll disagree, and that's my final word." he said.
A comma implies the sentence goes on, is unfinished, that there's something left to add.
"That's the end." she intoned.
"Not with a comma at the end it's not," he chuckled.

The first two are used as dialogue tags and require the comma to make the dialogue and the dialogue tag a complete sentence.

Even if it were right to separate them as you did you would have to do it like this.

"I think I'll disagree, and that's my final word." He said.

"That's the end." She intoned.

But in each instance the second sentence is incomplete. If you feel compelled to end every dialogue with a period you might have to reconsider the second sentence.

"I think I'll disagree, and that's my final word." He crossed his arms and turned away.

"That's the end." She spoke with clear finality.

Oddly your last example works because chuckled isn't really a dialogue tag.
"Not with a comma at the end it's not." He chuckled.