Martial Arts knowledge in my writing

[Darkranger85]

I've been taking martial arts classes the last 4-5 months or so. With those classes has come a much greater understanding of how fighting works from a technical stand point.

What are some good ways to bring this knowledge across without bogging down the story?

I don't want to get super technical and start describing the motion of each arm and leg, that would take just about anyone out of the story.

But I do want to make use of it to make more convincing fight scenes.

I look forward to hearing all your thoughts.

 

[StuartBurchell]

I have two- or three one on one, hand-to-hand fights in my WIP and just use general terms like 'he started a sequence of fists and kicks and grunted as he took a knee to the groin in return', but I'm doing my first edit and have yet to get to those scenes, so I want to read how it plays before seeing if (and how) it needs tinkering.

But I do know I do not want to get bogged down in minute details.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Have you read any of the Honor Harrington books? David Weber does a good job of getting across the essentials of her coup de vitesse without bogging down in details (a real accomplishment for him, I must say). As a layman, I get the gist of what's going on, without being told every movement.

 

[Mad Alice]

There are certain moves whose names almost everyone recognizes because of the karate kid movies, and Bruce Lee and so on. People even recognize whole disciplines by name.
For example, ready stance, fighting stance, flying crane kick, tiger punch, etc.

 

[Hex]

Maybe have a look at Chris Bradford's books for kids (Young Samurai/ Gamer etc)? He's a martial arts specialist and makes a lot of this in his biography. The fight scenes are detailed and more technical than usual but exciting, and they still carry the plot forward and are tied into the characters' experience.

 

[Locrian]

A point I picked up while learning a few different Japanese sword styles is that most duels lasted under five seconds (unless the combatants spent a long time circling first, looking for openings, which could last hours) They'd also be riding on instinct so hard that there would be very little conscious thought behind their actions. The same can apply for unarmed combat.

When writing combat, I prefer the fast approach so as not to get bogged down in detail. If I include details, usually they are about what the character is feeling rather than the moves they're doing. In fact, given some of my experiences sparring and doing pressure drills, I actually prefer omitting details of the whole combat in favour of snapshots of the action and skipping to the end, as that's how I experience it.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I used Wikipedia, Japanese and Chinese culture sites in English and bought a martial arts book full of photos.*
Most today (and for a long time in China) seems to be aimed at display. People may take it up thinking it's for self defence. My book says it's not, but a thing in itself, any attempt at self defence should be a last resort.
The Chinese sword and stave "forms" are very very many and have lovely names translated into English.

I don't want to get super technical and start describing the motion of each arm and leg, that would take just about anyone out of the story

That's a very good resolution.
Any "real" combat relies on near unconscious reaction -- The Gunfighter paradox. Conscious reaction is slower. Hence for equally good gunfighters, the person drawing first is more likely to fire second!
Perhaps a POV from an observer, OR maybe better tension at start and finale I think are best. A POV from one of the fighters is likely to sound false and be boring if technically accurate.

(* Long ago I was taught some Judo, Archery, Fencing, rifle and machine gun. None of that though was remotely related to real combat situations, other than overnight escape and evasion or overnight "capture the flag" in a military setting with mortar flares, blanks in real weapons and thunderflashes, none of which is personal combat. I've done some serious hillwalking, a lot of Canoeing, dingy sailing and occasional large yacht. Still handy background!
The Martial Arts book is pretty divorced from any real combat.)

 

[Gonk the Insane]

Long ago I was taught some Judo, Archery, Fencing, rifle and machine gun

That sounds like a brilliant class. Were you training for the Hunger Games or something? Zombie apocalypse survival course?

Any "real" combat relies on near unconscious reaction

It's called muscle memory (at least that's why my instructor called it) - the body remembering repeated patterns of movement until they become, as Ray said, unconscious reactions.

But I do want to make use of it to make more convincing fight scenes.

Do the characters know some form of martial arts? If not, they're unlikely to try anything elegant/complex.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

That sounds like a brilliant class.

Different organisations at different times. Frightening that it's coming up on 50 years ago when I started! But do something enough and you don't really forget it. I was rubbish at Fencing and Judo (I was very small and have poor stereoscopic vision). Moderately good at shooting (arrows or bullets at targets only, you only need to see out one eye at a time for those, or snooker. Even Lugh closed one eye to cast a spear.). I must have a go at clay pigeons* My son did it recently.
"Hunger games" seems to be only the latest in that genre of film/book going back over 60 years I think, but I've only read/seen the publicity, not the actual thing. I'm not short of things to read and hardly watch anything now as I find it interferes with writing and people complain I want the volume too loud

[*

Zombie apocalypse survival course?

Doesn't defence against Zombies need a shotgun? ]

 

[Gonk the Insane]

Doesn't defence against Zombies need a shotgun?

If you've already got a machine gun a shotgun just seems greedy or, dare I say, overkill...

 

[SilentRoamer]

Doesn't defence against Zombies need a shotgun? ]

The Walking Dead Season 2 "Hershel Shotgun" comes with unlimited ammunition and can explode heads at fifty yards with scattershot - Ill take one of those please.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

can explode heads at fifty yards with scattershot

I know very little of shot guns. But I do know a bit about ballistics, explosives and have seen regular shotgun cartridges. That sounds like either fantasy or there shotguns built like 2" mortars.
Fifty yards? really?
This may be part the reason a watch little TV / Cinema. Intellectual level of 18th C fairy stories for three year olds?

If you've already got a machine gun

I don't have any kind of gun. I guess I know how to make "black powder", I have some steel pipes and loads of small nuts and bolts that would do as shot. I suppose if there is a zombie apocalypse I could make a bunch of musket like weapons and have the rest of the family reloading ... Assuming garden forks and spades and sharpened steel poles make into pikes don't work?

 

[ralphkern]

The specifics of the fighting are down to how much depth you want to go into. But there are other things to bring to the mix.

For example, if you want to drill down into how a trained fighter operates, things such as Gross, complex and fine motor skills are important to consider.

When someone is calm, with all the time in the world, fine motor skills are easy: writing would be a good example precise manipulation of objects etc, Complex motor skills are more general, be able to jab away at a keyboard. Gross motor skills are swinging whole limbs.

From 10 years of martial arts training and another 10 years in the Police in a front line role, I can safety say that the kind of complex movements you see in martial arts films are neither practical nor possible. Fine goes out of the window very quickly and complex are about as good as your going to get.

As a bit of a MMA fan, this is an excellent video (and one of the best fights I ever watched - live!) which shows two very highly trained MMA fighters going through all the above:

******** HEALTH WARNING ITS NOT A PRETTY FIGHT - BLOOD IS SHOWN ***********

In relation to the points on shooting. Quick, unconscious reaction would be a major no no and is in fact trained out of you.

From several years on a firearms unit and also two years in the territorial army one aims fast, shoots slow. The weapon is brought to bear, you gather the sight picture, control your breathing to reduce movement as much as possible, make the shoot / no shoot decision and then squeeze. Diffirrent people can do this at different speeds. Certainly in the Police part of the assessment is you have to be able to show aptitude for doing it quickly (for example the sight picture will be gathered and decision will be made as the breathing point is reached), but its not the moviesque snap shots one sees.

This is an excellent video still used in training which shows how quick that process can be.

 

[Gonk the Insane]

Interesting stuff, @ralphkern - I'd never heard of gross motor skills before - and interesting videos, too

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just to echo to ralphkern's points, Rory Miller is a corrections officer in the US who has written a compelling series of books on the experience of violence, and its physical and psychological effects. One of his books is aimed specifically at writers, and brings together a lot of what he covers in his other books:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1481921460/?tag=brite-21

 

[Nick B]

Most martial arts are near to no use at best, or are going to get you hurt in a real fight. Remember that today, the majority of martial arts are a sport, and taught as such.
The exeptions being the skills taught to armed forces/police and so on such as krav maga or systema. These skills are not pretty - they are compact, fast and brutal.

I have experience of martial arts, I trained in judo as a child, some aikido and later tai gar bak nan kun kung fu. Out of these, judo and some aikido are useful in a fight. The kung fu training is great for fitness, speed and agility as well as confidence and control. Yes I have been involved in fights, both real and martial arts sessions.
Martial arts does not prepare you for what it is like to be attacked by someone intent on hurting you. Instinct and the will to survive take over. If you are trained well enough for instinct to use your training, and that training is practical, it will come. For the most part, commercial training like karate and kung fu are not practical and only advanced students would use them effectively. Going to karate once a week for a year, then trying to use it in a real fight will get you hurt.

 

[Toby Frost]

In practical (writing) terms, I’d have thought that unless the martial art has a “philosophical” element to it (I’m not sure that’s exactly the right word), skill in it would manifest itself as confidence and competence. I don’t think either of those are difficult to introduce to a character. The occasional phrase like “She dropped back into the guard position called the Ox” would be enough, I’d have thought, especially in a close 3rd person viewpoint. Also, a simple concept, like throwing your hand out at the opponent’s face and then kicking his exposed body as he goes to grab it, would look quite clever when described as a “special move”, especially in the chaos of a fight.

I suppose in a setting where everyone of relevance is armed and skilled – a samurai or King Arthur style world, or something like a Chinese martial arts film – increased complexity might be allowed. It may be that the physics are slightly different to allow “epic deeds”, like the deflection of shots in Star Wars that a real-world expert couldn’t do. Even so, I would keep detailed descriptions of what’s being done to a minimum. It’s incredibly easy to lose track of who’s standing where and how. You could always go for a more lyrical, “epic” feel, like the style used by Tolkien and Rider Haggard: “Again a dozen soldiers rushed into the pass, and again a dozen bodies fell tumbling back down the steps” or something of that sort.

Random aside (1): That said, it appears that the classic (and slightly comic) karate chop can and does work if delivered correctly. Nancy Wake, an agent in WW2, appears to have simply snapped a German soldier’s neck this way.

Random aside (2): A while back, I happened to read a self-defence manual for young ladies from the 1940s. It was a weird combination of the genteel and the completely brutal, intended to discourage – ie break – wandering hands at the cinema or theatre. It turned out to have been written by the man who trained the Special Operations Executive.

 

[Gonk the Insane]

Most martial arts are near to no use at best

I feel that's a little bit harsh, though I understand your point. In part, as @Quellist says, some schools may be geared more towards competitive sport, but there are also more traditional schools that do intend to impart skills and techniques that will not only work but can be used (with a little training) in a real life situation.

I learned Jiu Jitsu at the local university's club for a few years, and found that it was practical, useful, interesting and a whole lot of fun. It was also hard: geared towards preparing you for a streetfight you couldn't walk away from. We trained hard so that, if we ever needed those skills, the fighting would be easier. And my real-world experience was that, if you stick to basics that you know, it really does work.

Random aside (2): A while back, I happened to read a self-defence manual for young ladies from the 1940s

Intriguing stuff. Is it easily available, do you know? In my head it reads something like this: "Ask the chap to bally well totter off. Should the cad fail to heed your warning, stab him in the eye with your nail file".

 

[Nick B]

I feel that's a little bit harsh, though I understand your point. In part, as @Quellist says, some schools may be geared more towards competitive sport, but there are also more traditional schools that do intend to impart skills and techniques that will not only work but can be used (with a little training) in a real life situation.

I know it was a bit harsh, but I would rather upset people than see them get beaten up because they thought 12 months of karate made them a fighter.
To be able to use them effectively takes years of discipline and practice until it is natural reaction rather than having to think. That is why it is best to start as a child. As someone said, it has to be muscle memory to be effective. If you have to consciously decide on a move, it is too late.

Learning a few basic moves is different, that is actualy a good idea for anyone to learn - hold breaks, basic offences that allow you to escape a situation and so on. I teach my kids things like that.

 

[Brian G Turner]

traditional schools that do intend to impart skills and techniques that will not only work but can be used (with a little training) in a real life situation

The point made by writers such as Rory Miller (and mentioned by ralphkern above) is that under the intense adrenaline rush that can accompany a real-life fight, most people lose their complex motor skills. The result is that their arms and legs become numb and heavy, and while a person can still swing them, the ability to perform any kind of co-ordinated movements can become seriously impaired. The result becomes brawling,

Miller makes a point that a difficulty with training law enforcement officers is being able to use situations that will set off comparable adrenaline surges to the situations they will need to deal with. It gets more complicated, though, as different people will tend to react in different sets of ways. Interestingly enough, he also suggests that women tend to be better at initially dealing with such situations because their adrenaline rush takes longer to build-up - but also takes longer to calm down.

However, going back to the original poster's question -

I do want to make use of it to make more convincing fight scenes.

when writing fiction, artistic licence and entertaining the audience are serious considerations. Not all writers aspire to high levels of realism, and not all readers care for it. How to best handle a fight scene perhaps demands entirely on personal taste and artistic sensibilities. Personally, I'd suggest trying to keep it as much within the character experience as much as possible.

2c.