Tense

Amberfire

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Feb 7, 2013
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Hello,
I keep getting my past tense, and present tense confused when writing. It doesn't make sense when I read back on my stories. I have to keep correcting them.
I try so hard to get that perfect.
I'm always tripping up with this.
How does anyone cope with that or is it just me?
 
When you get 30 posts up you can drop an example onto the crits thread. We'll have a better idea of what the problem is if we see it. Hey, you only need 22 more, and you'd be surprised how quickly you get them. Have a look at the crits thread and make a comment or two.
 
You're not the only one, I don't think. I tend to be OK with it as long as I've decided in advance what I'm using (usually present) -- it's when I'm trying to edit one tense into the other that I struggle and miss bits.

I wonder if it's what you like to write in contrasting with what you tend to read? Maybe you're getting interference from what you subconsciously consider 'normal'?
 
It is a difficult thing to keep track of, but it does get easier. I suspect the problem is because in every day language people don't stick to one tense. We jump about from one to the other, the same way as we don't always use full sentences.
 
I have an app for iOS called Learnbots: English which does a simple job of showing the different tenses of the English language. I only have the free version, which only provides examples for a couple of verbs - but it's usually enough to illustrate the difference between past perfect, past imperfect, etc. :)
 
I have this problem when writing in first person POV. Maybe I should have concentrated in school English lessons instead of making up stories in my head.
 
While waiting for you to get to 30 posts (so that you can provide a sample of where you're having difficulties), just a few thoughts from me....

I think one problem people have is confusing the setting of the narrative (in the present or the past) with the tense of specific verbs (and parts of verbs). In the following examples, I've used: bold to indicate main verbs; blue to indicate past tense (darker for further in the past); red for present tense.

This combination of verb tenses is easiest to see in present tense narratives, as they tend to deal with things in their present and their past with obviously present and past verbs:

Jane avoids looking at the guard in the eye. She has too many bad memories of such people, in particular an occasion when a group of guards kicked her about.​

In a past tense narrative, the same thing happens, but it isn't usually so noticeable, because both the character's present and their past are described with what we normally take to be past tense verbs (albeit using different sorts of past tense):

Jane avoided looking at the guard in the eye. She had too many bad memories of such people, in particular an occasion when a group of guards had kicked her about.​

Another difference is in the use of non-main verbs and participles to indicate simultaneous action. In a present tense narrative, nothing really stands out:

Karl runs down the alley, looking for a way out.
as 'looking' is a present participle.

In the past tense, we still use a present participle (because the looking is happening at the same time -- in the present of -- the main verb):

Karl ran down the alley, looking for a way out.
Different tenses can appear in the same sentence, with only the main verb telling us what the tense of that whole sentence is:

Jane has too many bad memories, in particular an occasion when a group of guards beat her up, leaving her for dead. (Present tense sentence.)

Jane had too many bad memories, in particular an occasion when a group of guards had beaten her up, leaving her for dead. (Past tense sentence.)
And, of course, sentences of different tense (i.e. with main verbs of different tenses) can appear in a single narrative.

Jane has too many bad memories. On one occasion, a group of guards beat her up, leaving her for dead. (First sentence is in the present tense; second sentence is in the past tense.)

Jane had too many bad memories. On one occasion, a group of guards, had beaten her up, leaving her for dead. (Two past tense sentences, the second in the more distant past.)

There is a bit more to it, as there are other tenses, and varieties within those tenses -- see here for a fuller list of verb tenses -- but this should help as a starter.
 
Here is a good article on that::
Scribophile
There are more here on POV and Passive Active and Show vs Tell and many more.
Scribophile

And then; within this forum, there is The Toolbox which is extensive and you might want to read it all, but at your leisure.
The Toolbox
All very helpful especially before you venture into the critique when you qualify.
I also recommend a look at these
Purdue OWL: Verb Tenses
 
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Just think about when the action happened. If something happened already and is done happening, you can use the past tense. If the action is a fact and is still true right now, you can use the present tense. There are twelve beautiful tenses of English, but about half you will not use. I have been teaching English for about 2.5 years now, so if you have any questions, feel free to message me. You can do it! Proof-reading is also key.
 
Thanks Amberfire for starting the conversation as this is one of my main concerns about my writing; I feel I write naturally without thinking about the grammatical details, and thankfully it seems to work 90% of the time. However, I feel the grammar well enough to sense when something isn't right, but I don't know enough to spot all the errors!

So thanks to Ursa Major for the explanation. I think the key phrase for me in your reply was
Different tenses can appear in the same sentence, with only the main verb telling us what the tense of that whole sentence is:

If it's OK to ask an additional question: Over a whole story, is it acceptable to have the story in the past tense - I looked, I ran, the boy sat looking at me - with the action sequences in the present for more impact - the dragon spits, I run, the boy faints?

Thanks,

ABS
 
I've had some people try to tell me that that's the only time to use present tense.
If it's OK to ask an additional question: Over a whole story, is it acceptable to have the story in the past tense - I looked, I ran, the boy sat looking at me - with the action sequences in the present for more impact - the dragon spits, I run, the boy faints?
Thanks,
ABS

I don't agree with only using it for action sequences, especially because of the reason they usually give.

The primary reason given for confining present tense to action scenes is that present tense is intense and immediate and only suited to action scenes.

Present tense can quickly lead to boring and pedantic which seems far from intense and immediate. And that would be something to guard against if you decide to do larger sections in present tense.

I wouldn't say there are any hard rules either way about using present tense in action scenes, but I'd caution that you try to do the changes smooth enough that the reader doesn't get jarred out of the reading by a sudden change in tense just as the action starts. And always remember that changing to present tense doesn't make your scene more action-y. It's the way you show the action that does that.
 
Thanks Amberfire for starting the conversation as this is one of my main concerns about my writing; I feel I write naturally without thinking about the grammatical details, and thankfully it seems to work 90% of the time. However, I feel the grammar well enough to sense when something isn't right, but I don't know enough to spot all the errors!

So thanks to Ursa Major for the explanation. I think the key phrase for me in your reply was


If it's OK to ask an additional question: Over a whole story, is it acceptable to have the story in the past tense - I looked, I ran, the boy sat looking at me - with the action sequences in the present for more impact - the dragon spits, I run, the boy faints?

Thanks,

ABS

I think, but don't quote me (@Ursa major probably is the person to ask) that what you need to master is going in and out the pluperfect, but I'm not sure how that works if most of the novel is in past. In fact, I think it might be more straightforward in this instance to have the novel in present, and then go into past when that suits.

Alternatively, make it part of the narrative and story?

Jonny took the horses and returned them to the barn, ten years ago, having ridden them for a number of days. He put the dinner on --

Time to run. They're here. I get up, dashing around the campsite....

But, the best way to know is get to your 30 posts and pop a crit up and then we can see if it works in context.
 
Over a whole story, is it acceptable to have the story in the past tense - I looked, I ran, the boy sat looking at me - with the action sequences in the present for more impact - the dragon spits, I run, the boy faints?

I've seen writers use different tense in different scenes - for example, In Year of the Flood, Margaret Atwood jumps between the past and the present, and applies the corresponding tense to chapters for each.

Changing tense so dramatically partway through a section of prose sounds like it would be grating, though. It's your word choices, rhythm, pace, sentence structure etc that will give action sequences impact. Might be worth you looking at some Lee Child books for good examples.
 
If the tense changes but the temporal framework doesn't -- so a narrative describing the lead up to a battle is in the past tense, but the battle is, for some reason, in the present tense -- I think it would pull me out of the story. I'd wonder what was going on (in terms of the telling, not what was being told), which is probably not what you want. I suspect this would happen even if I wasn't trying to be in control of my own use of tense when writing.


(@Ursa major probably is the person to ask)
Thanks, JoZ.... :rolleyes::)

Note that what was being asked about in Post#11 is very different from the temporal framework changing (such as happens with a flashback), and not only because of the temporal change. Let me try to be more clear (using an originally past-tense narrative scheme)....

First of all, let's deal with the standard: the narrative references things in the past:

<Narrative in the past tense, in which narrator/PoV character is fully engaged> <Something from the past is mentioned> <narrative returns to its timeframe>

To use an example from above (colour coded as shown in the schema above), this might be:

Jane had too many bad memories. On one occasion, a group of guards, had beaten her up, leaving her for dead. But this was no time for doubts or fears. She ran towards the soldiers, her sword flashing in the moonlight.

In the above:
  • the normal narrative is in the Past tense,
  • the mention of something in the narrative's past is in what I call the Pluperfect (because that's what it was called in Latin lessons and I don't recall any of my English lessons going on about the grammar of tenses**), and
  • the resumption of the narrative to its present is in the Past tense.

Anyway, so far, so simple. The good news is that for very short flashbacks (which are not really, to me, flashbacks at all, given what I've written towards the end of this post), this is fine.

The problem is that the Pluperfect (aka the Past Perfect) doesn't have a simple version. In the past tense, one can write: I wrote, I was writing. In the Pluperfect, there's: I had written, I had been writing. Basically, the Pluperfect tense draws more attention to itself than the Past tense. And this is fine, because when one is slipping from the past into the more distant past, you (generally) want the reader to notice this. But it can become tiring (which only draws more, if not always conscious, attention to itself). One way of avoiding this is to use the Pluperfect for the transitions between past and distant past, but to swap to the simpler past tense for the meat of the flashback. So:

<Narrative in the past tense, in which narrator/PoV character is engaged fully engaged> <Something from the past is mentioned, as a lead into the flashback> <The flashback> <The lead out from the flashback> <narrative returns to its normal timeframe>
In the above,
  • the normal narrative is in the Past tense,
  • the lead into the flashback is in the Pluperfect,
  • the flashback itself is in the Past tense,
  • the lead out of the flashback is in the Pluperfect, and
  • the resumption of the narrative to its present is in the Past tense

In all of the above examples, a present tense narrative would have the main narrative and flashback in the Present tense, and mentions of the past, and lead ins and outs of a flashback in the Past tense. Obviously, in these cases, there's no Pluperfect with its attention-seeking extra words, but the change of tense has an extra purpose (which is also true of the previous example):

When things are usually mentioned in the narrative's past, they tend to be background information and explanations for what has happened, or is about to happen. But a flashback is different: it's meant to be as immediate as the normal narrative (which is why it's usually written in the narrative's normal tense). The reader is being dragged back to that past, to experience it with the character.

I hope this helps. (And note: I'm not an expert, so feel free to think it through for yourself.)


** - A quick guide to English tenses.
 
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And maybe one could add that you should stay in whatever tense you are writing, unless the story itself pulls you out of it. Then get back before things get weird. )
 
My apologies, I realised I hadn't replied to the thorough explanations above - I've set out to do so a couple of times, but it's not a discussion I find straightforward, so I'm developing my next response. Which may come in the form of a posting for a critique in a while!

Thanks for the replies above - I fully understand what you're saying and it sounds quite correct to me, but
If the tense changes but the temporal framework doesn't -- so a narrative describing the lead up to a battle is in the past tense, but the battle is, for some reason, in the present tense
is more what I'm on about. What I've written doesn't read badly to me, but then I've been living with it for a long time, so my eyes are probably missing a lot.

For me, probably best to leave it there for now until I can post up a request for a crit.

Cheers,

ABS
 
I have to work hard on tenses too. It can be tricky switching from past tense to further in the past (to pluperfect) and back again. I have to edit really carefully, to get the timeframe working correctly when my POV character's thoughts refer back in time.

Eg. "he faced the terrifying creature which had haunted his childhood dreams."

Using "had" takes the character's thoughts from facing the creature back to the childhood haunting.

I really like Ursa Major's post above, which articulates the use of tense very well. I will try the tip about switching to Pluperfect to signal a flashback, but not to overuse it in the meat of the flashback scene. I wish I had discovered these forums earlier!
 

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