Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens Thread **SPOILERS THROUGHOUT**

[clovis-man]

Why I think Rey is Luke's daughter:

• Thematically we see a lot of familial relationships in SW.
• Reys Force Vision when touching the lightsaber.
• Maz foretelling to Rey her family is ahead.
• Reys reaction when meeting Leia - seemed like Leia felt a close bond but more of an Aunty and I assume it would have been mentioned if she had another child.

...and so forth. Did anyone notice Rey's resemblance to Shmi Skywalker? Right down to the hair and clothing.

 

[shamguy4]

I saw the film. I don't think it was very good.
It relied too heavily on nostalgia.
Luke skywalker is a jerk. Maybe if his cell phone had been on, none of this movie would have happened. People wouldn't be dead.

Every one is looking for him and he's running away from his troubles.... Very not Jedi like...

Out of all places in the galaxy the millennium falcon gets found so fast by han solo the minute it leaves that sand planet. But they can't find Luke.

Then r2 randomly wakes up at the end and decides he knows where Luke is? How convenient... We call this a deus ex machina. It's bad writing.

The resistance shoots at a planet and it just blows up? Usually they need to hit a core reactor or some major structural part within the system.

Not impressed. But it wasn't terrible. It was "meh"

 

[Dave]

Every one is looking for him and he's running away from his troubles.... Very not Jedi like...

Out of all places in the galaxy the millennium falcon gets found so fast by han solo the minute it leaves that sand planet. But they can't find Luke.

Then r2 randomly wakes up at the end and decides he knows where Luke is? How convenient... We call this a deus ex machina. It's bad writing.

I'm at least prepared to accept that some of this can be explained by information we have not yet been provided with but will come within the next two films (though I'm in two minds about that because a film really ought to be able to stand alone.)

We don't yet know exactly what happened as Luke trained a new generation of younglings as Jedi Knights and why/how Ben Solo became Kylo Ren, the rise of the Knights of Ren? Who is Lord Snoke or why he has an inferiority complex over his height? Luke may have felt it was better to stop training rather than produce more practitioners of the Dark Side (are they still called Sith??)

I think that finding the MF was explained with an activated transponder when the engine was started (though admittedly very badly, and with other problems of speed and distance that have already been mentioned.)

R2D2 woke up because something different happened - either the second part of the map came within his notice, or Rey's use of the Force (but again, this needs explanation that was not provided.)

I'd have to agree that the lack of exposition is simply "bad writing."

One thing that this franchise ought to explain, but which has become even more muddied by the latest film was the prophecy from Ep. I that someone would be born that would "bring balance to the Force." That was meant to be Anakin, but it clearly was not Anakin because the Jedi and the Sith were already in balance before he was born, but while he lived the Dark Side clearly gained an upper hand. Then, I assumed that it applied instead to Luke, who was going to bring the Return of the Jedi and therefore bring back the balance that had been lost. Clearly, Luke failed to achieve that too. So, who does the prophecy actually apply to. The odds must be now on Rey.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Apprently the cat is out of the bag - major Spoiler to follow -

One of the Disney games shows Ben referring to Rae as his cousin... So Silentroamer (and me, way-hey!) were right that Luke is her father.

If the game is right (but it's an official Disney spin off)....

 

[Denise Tanaka]

A couple more:

Negs: the ground separating Rey and Kylo was a blatant deus ex machina to stop them killing each other...

Pos: early on I noticed a similar attention to detail that we'd expect in the originals. For example, the canvas sheets on the Millenium Falcon, and the big dent in Rey's little speeder pod

More thoughts:

Rey: I presume to be Luke's daughter - and this seemed confirmed when she faced Kylo, as it was Luke's theme that played. Also, there's the obvious point about the lightsaber belonging to her father, and her grandfather. That she was Luke's daughter seemed pretty blatant.

Poe: I thought he was Luke's son, by his looks, when I first saw him. It was never directly suggested. However - best star fighter in the fleet? Ben Kenobi described Anakin in similar glowing terms...

I wonder if the "ground separating" was something that Rey did with her Force force, maybe unconsciously, tapping into the geologic stresses that were already occurring.

 

[Culhwch]

Apprently the cat is out of the bag - major Spoiler to follow -

One of the Disney games shows Ben referring to Rae as his cousin... So Silentroamer (and me, way-hey!) were right that Luke is her father.

If the game is right (but it's an official Disney spin off)....

I saw a post that put this rumor to bed. Apparently he says 'curses', not 'cousin'. I'd tend to believe this is true. That's a huge stuff up if not, given we're a year and a half or from the next movie.

 

[kythe]

I finally saw "The Force Awakens", and I wasn't disappointed. The movie greatly felt like a love letter to the original Star Wars. It was refreshing to return to the Force as I used to view it, before the prequels turned it into midichlorians and the Jedi were chosen at birth only.

However, the story was too emotionally flat to me. Rey and Finn were wonderful characters, but I had trouble connecting with many others. Kylo Ren didn't scare me as a villian - he was a moody teenager with a light saber. People were repeatedly able to run from him, trick him, and successfully fight him, which really takes away from the intensity he should have had. He is nothing compared with challenges Luke and the rest have already had. Oddly, I didn't even feel strongly about Solo's fate. He has lived a full life, and he is the type of person who would prefer to die during an adventure.

I'm still interested to find where they will take this story in the next installment.

 

[ZombieWife]

Ren didn't scare me either, but I don't think he was intended to scare. He hasn't completed his training, so he is (in a sense) a bit teenagery in the ways of the darkside, imho. Dude cannot channel that anger and hate like Vader. He's unhinged and maybe that will be part of his training in episode 2. I expect him to experience his own character arc, however tragic, over the next two films.

 

[Mister_Oy]

Totally agree on the non scary Ren. With the position he obviously holds (Same as Vader by the look of it) he's obviously feared by those he associates with. Loved that uh-oh moment from the two Stormtroopers. However - he does feel more like a moody teenager than a "Dark Lord". It will be interesting to see how he develops - which I'm sure is the idea. I have a feeling we'll get him in three different doses... Development - Full on Evil - Redemption. It'll have to be a happy ending. This is Disney after all haha!

 

[Jeremy M. Gottwig]

Kylo Ren didn't scare me as a villian - he was a moody teenager with a light saber.

True, but I loved Kylo Ren as a character. He felt real to me in a way that many villains do not. I think that he has great potential, and I am very interested in seeing how he progresses.

 

[Mr Orange]

saw this on monday and really liked it. it was always going to be a movie for the fans with the characters, settings, gear and themes from the OT featuring heavily. most of the inconsistencies mentioned above feature in the OT as well. the rebels have always found it pretty easy to destroy death stars. and locating people, ships etc. has always been pretty easy as well. i think JJ Abrams got the feel (if not the size!) of the universe spot on. and even the universe in the OT is nice and compact wrt how quickly people nip around it.

character development could have been better, but hopefully that will improve in VIII.

i think the movie was great and i'm looking forward to seeing how they develop the story away from the OT. i will definitely watch the next one, unlike after Episode I, which i thought was so bad i still haven't watched II and III

 

[J-Sun]

I've read through both this thread and the other one and will reference both indiscriminately. Everybody's covered everything pretty well so I don't have much original to add but maybe some.

Long story short: "better than the prequels" - though not as good as the originals. Derivative but fun with a lot of pros and cons. Abrams had one way to succeed and two ways to screw up - he picked the better of the two screwups. He could have created something in the same old universe that was yet new that yet recaptured the spirit of the old. That would have been a thrilling success. He could have done something prequel-different that would have prequel-sucked. That would have been the disastrous screw up. Or he could have rehashed most of the good stuff from the earlier flicks with little of the bad and made a fun flick that revived the franchise and kept the road clear for improvements in the future. That's a "screw up" but not a bad one and that's what I feel like I got. I think I agreed with most of @Dave 's main post and also agree with a point that Cul made - Abrams actually has to thank the prequels because, without them to compare against and breathe a sigh of relief over, I don't think the reaction would be anywhere near as positive.

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Now just some random other comments that struck me. There are a million little niggles such as Han apparently never having used Chewie's crossbow before (as someone brought up - sorry, I forgot who) but I'll try to stick to larger scale comments.

@Culhwch : "They couldn't seriously rustle up some more ships than that? No Y-Wings or B-Wings sitting around available for what was really a bombing mission?"

As others have mentioned, this is a thin, rushed, underexplained film so they don't explain it and do leave us wondering. But it might not be unreasonable to assume that everyone thought the War was Over and they could all go home and relax and what we're seeing is the result of massive downsizing of the Rebellion military. Could also explain why we apparently need a Republic and a Rebellion - the Republic is probably too weak to do anything against a concentrated Empire Strikes Back Back counterattack. But, apparently, the Rebellion is weak, too. Good point about the ship monoculture, though - ashamed to say I didn't even realize it but, yes, the absence of anything but the X-wings was weird.

@Bick asked "Didn't the Republic win in Episode VI? What was the point of the first 3 movies if its all gone to hell anyway?"

Agreed. Shades of Alien 3. Completely undid the greatness of Aliens though, at least, I can respect them for trying something different and trying to create a tragedy trilogy. They were doing blockbuster Hollywood sequelitis and trying to make it a kind of art. Failed, but nice try. Here, we just kind of undo the original trilogy in this hybrid sequel/reboot for no real artistic win. But, art imitates life (or is it the other way round? ) where this can also apply to what I said to Cul's point. We had WWII and we're having Cold War II so why not Empire-Rebellion III? I guess. Maybe.

@ratsy mentioned Luke running away. It might not be cowardly fear. It seems Luke started a new training academy and things went pear-shaped. This might have made him realize he'd repeated Obi-wan's failing and created a new Vaderish guy and so on - it could be guilt and penance rather than cowardice. Either way, it's no more or less than Yoda did, running off to Dagobah.

Only slightly different notes:

@Heir mentions "when Rey pulls Luke's lightsaber to her. That was one of those magical moments I imagine was reminiscent of the originals. It's one of those things like when Luke blows up the Death Star, or when Vader saves Luke from the Emperor, it will never get old."

It may never get old, but maybe I have. I imagine that scene will be very popular with many people but I remember the whole setup of the Vader/Luke/Emperor thing. And as Luke is being zapped, I thought, "Oh crap, what's going to happen?" I was emotionally involved. And when the camera cuts to Vader and he eventually looks back and forth, I thought, "Can he just let this happen? He's his dad! But how can he stop it? It's 'too late for him now' and that's his Emperor!" and being balanced on edge and when Vader suddenly lifts the Emperor up and the lightning goes everywhere and Vader's helmet briefly lights up skull-like (though that may have been afterward), the amazement and exhilaration in this kid's spirit was fantastic. Indeed, a magical moment that never gets old. But I watched the camera watch the saber sit there in the snow and I thought to myself, "Rey's gonna do the Luke-in-the-Hoth-monster-cave trick," and she did. Big deal. I can recognize the neatness of the thing in the abstract but I couldn't feel it. The character dynamics weren't there, and I'd already seen the action dynamics. Not to mention that it's a minor part of other light saber duels. But that's maybe just me not being a kid anymore, dammit.

@kythe : "Oddly, I didn't even feel strongly about Solo's fate."

Similar to the above point, I'm right there with you, kythe. That is the most amazing and disappointing thing about the movie to me. I knew Ford was reluctant even as far back as Empire to be Solo again but I didn't have the specific knowledge others seem to have had regarding the extra-movie contract stuff. Still, as soon as he and Ren were in the same place, I knew he or they were going to die (perhaps all trapped when the bombs go off) but, as soon as he stepped out towards Ren I knew he alone was going to die on the catwalk, so there was no surprise anywhere near that moment. Now, if you'd have said, "Han dies in this movie," I'd have been shocked and extremely upset. But when it actually goes down in the movie, it somehow muffs all that. My biggest problem with it was just that it was a rather ignominious Boba Fett kind of death for the Reluctant Hero. Han deserved something bigger and better, such as trying to save Leia from something horrible or whatever. That is the one saving grace, in that he was trying to "save" his son but not in a dramatically satisfying way.

-----

On to some oddities and possible additions or variants to the general reactions:

Several people mentioned audience reaction while they were in the theater. That was actually a disappointing part to me. There were several lines or references that I responded to or which got a laugh from me but the theater was mostly pretty quiet. It was all respectful, but little cheering or participation.

I've heard several people mention the music and, indeed, I've often wondered how bad Star Wars would have bombed with a pop music or synth soundtrack and how many SF movies might have been saved with a Williams soundtrack. I've always loved the music but, in retrospect, I didn't really notice the music except in a spot or two and have no new melody in my head at all. Now, you don't want it to be obtrusive but the original balanced perfectly - you noticed it without it being distracting. Much like Abrams' fork, Williams missed the ideal in this while avoiding the worst - the music, insofar as it was new, was just "fine" for me in this one.

And someone (sorry, forgot who) mentioned the BIG villain being too Guardians of the Galaxy-ish, which is exactly what I thought. But no one's complained about the name. I'm waiting for the next SFF flick's villain to be called Skake or something. Snape. Snoke. All these sound stupid to me and the only excuse I can think of is that they're supposed to be reminiscent of "Snake." Snoke? Have a Snoke and a grimace! "I'd like to teach the world to scheme in perfect villainy!"

And, on the lesser villain, I'm with most people who weren't overly impressed by Vader-lite and his lite-saber and I'm with @Brian Turner in having the "Han and Leia produced that?!?" reaction when he unmasked.

One thing I especially did like that seemed like a nod to the originals in the best way, was that the cast (except for von Sydow) was pretty completely unfamiliar to me. I know this isn't true for everyone as most all of them had done things that got them well known to some, especially UK, audiences, but there were no Liam Neesons and Samuel L. Jacksons in the cast. And I have heard one and only one person, in real life, on the boards, elsewhere on the net or anywhere, say anything significant against Daisy Ridley and her Rey and I'm not a second. She (as actress and character) was the brightest spot of the movie, to me. She's got the Force and "goodness" of Luke without his sort of "Goody Two-Shoes" vibe. She's got some Han "can-do" coolness to her. She's got some Leia attitude and effect. But (allowing that she intuitively groks the Force all too easily) she's a believable character. Akin to that "extra-character" issue with the Force, there's another "in-story" problem with her, though. That she would be furious after her mind probe and Han's death is obvious but there was no apparent "in-story" concern with her rage and we all know "that way leads to the Dark Side." Now, personally, I don't buy the kind of Tao aspects of the Force, being more of a Western "the biggest gun wins" guy but I hope they don't disregard their own Mythos in the later movies.

Despite how good the character is, there is another problem I thought of when I thought of Luke and Leia swinging across the void when Luke had shot the extension bridge controls. As much action as there was and as much was lifted from the earlier movies, there were very few swashes buckled. I'm not saying the new movie should have lifted this "lifted from Errol Flynn" moment itself, but surely they could have found more Three Musketeers or Flash Gordon or whatever moments to steal? And that moment also contains Leia's kiss "for luck" to Luke. Now, contrary to Lucas' "I was a genius from the start with it all planned out" revisionism, he - and certainly we and they - had no idea they were brother and sister and part of the energy of the original movie (that even little kids weren't oblivious to) was the sexual tension. That same sequence had Leia looking admiringly after Han as he hilariously dashed off after a bunch of stormtroopers and saying, "He certainly has courage!" Now, I don't want my SF movie to be a romance, but there are advantages to triangles and sexual tension and this movie had none. (Pirates of the Caribbean rips of this part of Star Wars the best of any movie I know of, where the hobbit is Luke and Johnny Depp is Han and Keira is Leia but with a different outcome because Luke and Leia aren't related.) The actor who played Dameron did fine with the nothing he was given and the ex-stormtrooper also did fine but there was nothing but a thin, unconvincing connection between him and Rey with nothing approaching so much as a kiss. Putting a toe into dangerous waters here, but this may have something to do with Hollywood's weird conflict with politically correctly casting an often obligatory Black Hero combined with their continued resistance to letting that Black Hero manifest much masculinity such as, y'know, letting him kiss the freakin' girl! I dunno. Either way, it was strange. And this all also connects to another problem in this nexus: Rey has had a hard life and doesn't manifest as overly saccharine and may naturally get angry when people mindrape her and kill her friends but she's pretty purely good. The ex-stormtrooper may be an ex-stormtrooper but he's somehow pretty purely good and behaves like he's on a chaperoned date. And, of course, Mr. Hero Pilot is a Good Guy. There are no "scoundrels" (or even scruffy-looking nerf herders) in this movie. And that's sorely missed, especially as they kill off Han (the Last Scoundrel?) in this movie.

On another note, akin to the music in that it's a subtle "there but not all there" is a sense of scale. Leia was a kickass proto-feminist character but she had to go along for the ride with Luke twice (bridge and the skiff/sail barge in Jedi) though she was also the one who had to save their skins at other moments. Anyway, in this, an out-of-Luke Rey is busily saving herself alone in the giant chasm of the Death Planet and it occurred to me how little sense of "bigness" this movie had aside from that moment. I think Grim mentioned the galaxy seeming to be a few square miles large and that's true but there was also little sense of scale even on a human level. The opening scene "homages" the Star Destroyer opener of the original and it does show a triangle enlarging over the face of a (already forgot - moon or sun?) but that conveys none of the awe and power of the thunderous Star Destroyer going overhead in the original. Abrams homages the scene, but not the effect. And a lot of this movie is like that.

All that from reflecting on a bridge scene between Luke and Leia while Han's running around after and from stormtroopers. Now, that was a movie!

But this one was still good fun and I have a Christmas present of movie gift certificates that ensure that I'll see it in the theaters at least once more to see if my impressions change.

 

[Perpetual Man]

I enjoyed it.

I can see why people feel that it is very much a reworking of the original Star Wars movie, but I thought Brian's thread about the Heroes Journey really helped explain that.

I did not like the way that the reset button was set in the form of the new Republic. The idea of three main forces in play was good. When I thought about it it was unrealistic to think that the Empire would just collapse with the death of it's leader and superweapon. Yes into disarray, perhaps, but there was enough of an infrastructure left for it to restructure, even if it was considerably reduced in the process, giving ground to the Republic. But they build their new super-weapon and then, just like that, it is back to the First Order versus the Resistance.

Other than that though, it was entertaining, a lot more than the prequel movies. I saw it in the local Vue cinema with a big screen, but more importantly I took Harry (7) to see the film. I had been saving his first cinema visit for something really special and this seemed to fit. He just sat there with a dumb smile on his face throughout. So from that perspective alone it was well worth it.

One final thought, sorry if anyone has mentioned it before or if I misheard it during the film.

There is a part concerning the lightsaber where it is said that it belonged to a father and grandfather, the inference being it was Luke's and Anakin's before that. (I have one theory that suggests Obi Wan might have had kids so it could be his lightsaber). That being said if it is the Skywalker lightsaber, then there is the issue that Luke lost it when his hand was chopped off at the end of Empire. That weapon is now somewhere in Bespin... In Return of the Jedi Vader studies the weapon that Luke has and says that Luke has now built his own blade.

So the Saber that ends up with Rey cannot belong to two generations. Unless she's not a Skywalker...

 

[Mr Orange]

A good point Tim that agrees with a blog I read that raises a theory that Rey is in fact a Kenobi...

For those interested, this is the blog:

Rey is a Kenobi

Hope the link works

 

[dekket]

[

There is a part concerning the lightsaber where it is said that it belonged to a father and grandfather, the inference being it was Luke's and Anakin's before that. (I have one theory that suggests Obi Wan might have had kids so it could be his lightsaber). That being said if it is the Skywalker lightsaber, then there is the issue that Luke lost it when his hand was chopped off at the end of Empire. That weapon is now somewhere in Bespin...

]
My understanding is that the lightsaber lost on Bespin (that belonged to Anakin, and was given to Luke by Obiwan) had been found (somehow) and was the one that Maz was keeping in the box in the storeroom beneath her bar. Something as rare and collectable as a lightsaber probably would have been picked up by anyone who found it (at the end of whatever chute it ended up down) on Bespin, and sold to an interested party.

 

[Culhwch]

Abrams homages the scene, but not the effect. And a lot of this movie is like that.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on the movie.

I was thinking today about this in relation to Jurassic World, the other big nostalgic reboot of 2015, which likewise did big business, but was not particularly well-received critically (though I liked it, personally). From memory a lot of the criticism seemed to boil down to the fact that it leaned too much on nostalgia to paper over giant plot holes and unrealistic situations. Which could easily describe The Force Awakens, but there's not a lot of that kind of criticism going around...

There is a part concerning the lightsaber where it is said that it belonged to a father and grandfather, the inference being it was Luke's and Anakin's before that. (I have one theory that suggests Obi Wan might have had kids so it could be his lightsaber). That being said if it is the Skywalker lightsaber, then there is the issue that Luke lost it when his hand was chopped off at the end of Empire. That weapon is now somewhere in Bespin... In Return of the Jedi Vader studies the weapon that Luke has and says that Luke has now built his own blade.

So the Saber that ends up with Rey cannot belong to two generations. Unless she's not a Skywalker...

It's definitely Luke's first lightsabre, which belonged originally to Anakin. I don't recall the mention of 'father and grandfather' that you reference, though - that would pretty firmly close the debate on Rey's parentage, if so, so I'm fairly confident that you may be mis-remembering that part.

As to how it has come into Maz's possession - well, that's a story for another time, as she says. Episode VIII would be my guess. But to go back to Empire, we never actually see what happens to the sabre (or Luke's hand) but there is no indication it didn't just end up in the bowels of Cloud City, rather being dropped out into Bespin's atmosphere with the rest of Luke. Maybe some ugnaught found it and took it to the local pawn shop for a quick credit or two.

 

[Perpetual Man]

Thanks folks, that clears things up a bit.

Cul loved that last sentence made me chuckle.

 

[JC Kang]

I wish I had found this website on December 19. I saw the Force Awakens that morning (I got to the theater at 8:15 for a 9:00 AM showing, and the theater was already packed) and wanted to talk about it.

As of yesterday, I've seen it three times, the best being the second time when I knew what was going to happen and saw how they set up the story and relationships. Even though I agree it is a remake of a New Hope, I still enjoyed it immensely. The first time, I laughed, I cried, I Forcegasmed.

To me, the best part was the character chemistry. In my opinion, that's what drove the original series and was sorely missing in the prequels (amazing story, poor execution, in my opinion). Finn interacted with everyone so well.

Kylo Ren-- he's what Anakin should have been. I was one who trashed his lightsaber crossguard at first, but I later found out that it is due to a cracked kyper crystal and the sides are to vent the energy off. It also gives his sword the uneven appearance.

As to who Rey's parents are... Kylo Ren clearly suspects her identity, and Han Solo, too; however, Leia is overall dismissive of her. I've heard conjecture that she might be related to Obi-Wan (they spliced in Alec Guiness's voice into her Force Vision).

 

[BAYLOR]

I saw it today , It was magnificent. Two 's up.

 

[allmywires]

I saw it today and - please hold your horrified gasps - as someone who has seen none of the previous Star Wars films, I enjoyed it immensely.

I can tell that it draws a lot on the previous films, both in setup and story, but I enjoyed the knowing nods and throwbacks, which didn't seem to overly saccharine to me (as a new viewer - my brother had to explain the relevance of the wreckage on Jakku and the Millennium Falcon, but apart from that I followed everything else, due to the way Star Wars has permeated the general pop culture scene as I grew up). I liked Kylo Ren as a villain mainly because I am a sucker for the angsty-with-daddy-issues kinda character he is, and I think it's fairly obvious they're setting him up to be redeemed (the bit with Vader's melty mask and him saying 'I can feel the light again' or whatever it was, was an alarm bell to me). Rey and Finn made me laugh and had good platonic chemistry if not romantic, and BB8 stole the show. I feel like Rey being Luke's daughter is too easy - not to mention obvious, I kind of half-expected him to turn round to her in the end and be all 'Hello daughter' - so will hold off on that one until the next one comes out.

The only thing that really bothered me was the deus ex machina of R2D2 suddenly waking up and oh, he does have the rest of the map on his backup drives after all! which seemed clumsy and unnecessary.

and re: comparisons with Jurassic World: for me, they're both similarly nostalgic, similarly visually impressive, but TFA has one major thing JW lacked, which was interesting and believable characters. I actually liked the fact that there was no overt romance shoehorned into this film - Chris Pratt and Jessica Chastain had so little chemistry I thought their characters pairing off at the end was an elaborate joke. Plus, Rey is a thousand times better a 'Strong Female Character' than Claire 'runs in heels' from JW.