Manta Rays are self-aware?

[Brian G Turner]

A controversial if intriguing study:
Manta rays are first fish to recognise themselves in a mirror

What astonishes me most, though, is that animals are presumed to be automatons without any feelings - unless proven otherwise. Which, of course, is difficult to prove when its human traits that set that standard.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

We are hardwired to anthropomorphize - that's why you have to be enormously careful with claims such as this.

See also my novel Beautiful Intelligence for a wider-ranging discussion, or check out the massively influential - and important - The Inner Eye by Nicholas Humphrey.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

anthropomorphize - that's why you have to be enormously careful

Indeed with ANY observed behaviour by something that can't talk to you. We fool ourselves all the time. That's why HiFi, Electro-sensitivity etc needs double blind testing. Very many "proofs" of Psychic powers have been proven to be flawed testing.


Mirrors are tricky.

Some creatures may be more interested in touch (or cats in smell, visual breeds of dogs seem to get more out of TV and watching out a window than most cats do.)
Also an animal may realise that the image in the mirror follows it or seems identical (Elephants, mirrors and paint spots), but how do we know the positive mirror experiments demonstrate self awareness, or creatures failing are not?

The original Eliza experiment proved that ordinary people are millable about programs pretending to be people.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Mirrors are tricky.

Indeed, humans are hugely reliable on vision - perhaps abnormally so.

I doubt a human presented with their own smell would show self-awareness about it.

We are hardwired to anthropomorphize

Recognising that other creatures sense their experience of the world hardly seems a negative thing.

However, the genocides of history teach that humans are also hard-wired to overcome that recognition - even in other humans.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I doubt a human presented with their own smell would show self-awareness about it.

Unfortunately!

 

[Ray McCarthy]

ordinary people are millable

gullible

... stupid AI auto-correction!

 

[Frost Giant]

There are many species that have more intelligence than we give them credit for. This thread reminded me of the protective legislation I read about concerning another intelligent sea creature, the Octopus:

Octopus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, it seemed they thought an Octopus was too intelligent to be tortured for scientific gain.

I think humans tend to underestimate the sentience of other creatures (Elephants, dolphins, etc). The human tendency to "anthropomorphize" doesn't necessarily lead to compassion or giving an animal more credit when it comes to their state of consciousness.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I think humans tend to underestimate the sentience of other creatures

And oddly at the same time misinterprete motivations. Sentience, Intelligence and Selfware may be three different things. We can't even agree how to measure Intelligence or agree exactly what it is in humans!

 

[TitaniumTi]

It sometimes seems as if research into animal cognition demands weighty evidence built on a theoretical scaffold that is itself light on evidence. The mirror test is an example: do we have convincing evidence that it actually measures sentience (whatever that really is) in non-human species?

Irene Pepperberg's book, Alex and Me, is an interesting narrative on mid 20th century research into animal cognition.
Alex & Me eBook: Irene Pepperberg: Amazon.com.au: Kindle Store

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I think humans tend to underestimate the sentience of other creatures (Elephants, dolphins, etc). The human tendency to "anthropomorphize" doesn't necessarily lead to compassion or giving an animal more credit when it comes to their state of consciousness.

In my opinion human compassion is a direct and inevitable consequence of the underlying reason we do tend to anthropomophize.

 

[Frost Giant]

@Ray McCarthy - The nature of self awareness is indeed a mystery until we can climb into another creature's skin. Until we can sample another life form's point of view and feelings I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Just because they're not as smart as we are doesn't mean their consciousness is any less valid or significant. If we encountered an alien species that was more advanced and more intelligent than us, they might demand proof that we were truly self aware and not just tool using animals. They might regard human consciousness as inferior no matter what evidence we presented. We would certainly disagree, but the proof sentience argument is an old one and it's currently impossible to definitively resolve.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

The nature of self awareness is indeed a mystery until we can climb into another creature's skin.

After studying philosophy, science, etc 30+ years and AI 25 years, I think it's a mystery even for humans about humans. One of the central questions about existence.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I don't think it's a mystery at all. But that's just my optimism, perhaps...

 

[Foxbat]

Unfortunately the most compelling question - why a Manta Ray should be self-aware and what survival advantage is gained by such a characteristic within its specific environment - is not answered in the article.