Unintentional sexism

[Ray McCarthy]

So you are writing your mediaeval fantasy ... the problem is that even words still used today have changed in a sexist way...

Eight words that reveal the sexism at the heart of the English language | David Shariatmadari


have you other words that can be a problem?

There are also words that can be "innocent" in USA or UK/Ireland/SA/Malta/Australia but not both:
faggot (stick or mince shape in a meal)
rubber (eraser in USA)
bum, bottom (fanny in USA)

This is different from words that have different meaning:
trunk vs boot (car)
muffler vs silencer (car)
Those are not a problem as they are (a) obvious from context and (b) not unintentionally rude.

someone asked here the other day why might it be rude to use Madame (Madam). See link which has exactly what I said.

 

[WaylanderToo]

there is some validity in that however there are also derogatory terms which apply more to men than women or the association is more masculine....

you think whenever someone is mentioned as being a ******* (be it as an accurate description of their legality or a description relation to their personality) the immediate thought is that it's a man. In fact I have never heard of a woman being described like this...
calling someone the 'C' word - invariably it is a man who is called it, very rarely a woman

I agree that there seems to have been a change in the way certain words are used WRT women - however words change (for better or worse) all the time. Look at 'gay' for an excellent example. I'd argue that the author of the piece referenced is actively looking to find offence

 

[The Judge]

Um... I'm not sure what your point is, Ray, with the title you've chosen for the thread. (And I'm sure there are plenty of feminists who would argue that the change of words describing women from neutral or even admirable to derogatory is far from "unintentional sexism" but was part and parcel of a society which did all it could to keep women in their place...)

There are hundreds (no, thousands...) of words which have changed meaning over the years, not all of which are sexist, but which reflect word slippage -- eg sophisticated originally meant adulterated/no longer pure or natural, and only came to have a meaning implying urbanity in the late C19th. Urbane when it was first used simply meant of the city (ie urban) but within a hundred years was being used in a sense of courteous/refined -- ie the exact opposite of trajectories such as villain and peasant which applied to those working in the country and slipped into meaning coarse, boorish or worse. Then there are words which had big meanings such as awful -- meaning literally full of awe -- but which have become degraded through overuse for minor things.

As for madam, it's perfectly acceptable to use it when required -- it might have a secondary meaning of a woman in charge of prostitutes, but that doesn't negate its primary meaning, or indeed the slang term for a little girl who has too much to say for herself -- derogatory again, of course. (A few years back there was an advert with a girl laying down the law about what everyone was going to be when they grew up and adds "And Mummy says I'm going to be a right little madam" -- no one was going to confuse that with her mother thinking she'd be in a brothel.)

We're wordsmiths, or should be, so we should be aware not only of what words mean now, but also historical usage and nuance. And if one is writing historical fiction or medieval-type fantasies, it's imperative one thinks hard about the words used and what they meant in the period one is writing about.

 

[WaylanderToo]

We're wordsmiths, or should be, so we should be aware not only of what words mean now, but also historical usage and nuance. And if one is writing historical fiction or medieval-type fantasies, it's imperative one thinks hard about the words used and what they meant in the period one is writing about.

as a reader rather than a writer I'd actually disagree with this - if you are writing a novel set in 9th Century Germany (for example) I'd not want to read a text which while true to the period in terms of the correct usage of various words is not true to the language of today (unless I have mis-understood your post there). As a silly example we talked on another thread about beer vs ale... from a historical viewpoint they are not interchangeable from a fantasy viewpoint I'd argue that they are. In terms of time you'd (I would imagine in those days) talk about 'x' amount of heartbeats to cover 100 yards and you could make a case that this is ok, though I'd also be ok with using seconds... though saying "...you've got 5 minutes to get to [a given place]..." is better than using candle-marks as a measurement (though it may well be more historically accurate). I'd far rather read that a character strapped/threw on his armour or his main-gauche rather than the correct nuts and bolts of what really happened back then

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I'm not sure what your point is

Well, the actual changes may or may not be intentional sexism.
I'm just musing that some people, in some cultures, writing fantasy, might occasionally use a word that's more sexist today than it might have been for the character, or indeed than the Author realises.
Certainly, I'd not expect yourself to make that mistake.

As for madam, it's perfectly acceptable to use it when required

I agree totally. I'm amazed though to meet people that don't know the range of meanings.

Words change. Sometimes context in a mediaeval story makes it clear that a "Constable" is sort of a local manager / boss of a castle or town that hasn't a resident lord and and not a lowest rank of Police Officer. Other Mediaeval terms are still used, but meaning is so different, I struggle to have a suitable word sometimes for the modern reader. If you are reading Shakespeare or Chaucer you may be educated enough to know what they mean, but we use the same words in a Mediaeval setting novel today at our peril?

We're wordsmiths, or should be, so we should be aware not only of what words mean now, but also historical usage and nuance. And if one is writing historical fiction or medieval-type fantasies, it's imperative one thinks hard about the words used and what they meant in the period one is writing about.

Yes, I guess that's what I'm saying.
However my understanding needs to be tempered by the impact on the average reader?

 

[SilentRoamer]

Slightly off topic but relates to the changing of words over time.

Having read a complete and unabridged War of the Worlds early last year one word stood out completely for me.

At a certain point in the novel the main character ejaculates another character from the house - easy to garner the intended meaning but still different enough to have a completely different connotation.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Not a Sherlock Holmes reader, but in one book someone ejaculates out of the window.

Still, that's Victorian London for you.

 

[hopewrites]

Thad, I spat tea all over my monitor...

 

[thaddeus6th]

Count yourself lucky you're not a Conan Doyle character. Who knows what would've happened.

....

Sorry. I'll stop now.

 

[hopewrites]

I think it would do to look at why the usage of a word changes.

I remember when I was little, and watching Disney's version of Beauty and the Beast, the song Gaston sings has a line "I'm especially good at expectorating" I thought this was some kind of verb for having one's expectations met. My mom had to tell me it meant spitting, which made the fact that he spat after singing that line more clear.

If however, I and my peers were not linguistically set right, we may have deviated the usage of the word and if enough of us were to do so, a new definition would be proposed to writers of dictionaries.

I find among my current, as well as past, set(s) of friends derogatory terms are applied without reference to the gender of the derided, or their usual sexual preference. While not a laudable step for equality, it is one gaining fast traction as far as I can tell. No one has yet made the argument in my hearing that one can't call a female person a *******, or a male person a bitch because they lack the appropriate gender for such derogatory comments.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

but in one book someone ejaculates

Used for shouting at least till about about 1951.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Ahem, I was aware of that

 

[WaylanderToo]

Not a Sherlock Holmes reader, but in one book someone ejaculates out of the window.

Still, that's Victorian London for you.

let's be accurate here the proper phrase for that (and a great word!) is defenestration

 

[Ray McCarthy]

defenestration

I thought that was what they did to your house when you bought an upgrade to double glazing.

 

[J Riff]

Nervous fumbling with bedclothes...* ? All I can say is (^!^!^!^!) the (****) whole (G&!&FFing) lot.