Paid Writing Workshops/Courses/Critique or Writing Groups (or: Critique Sites are a Disappointment)

[sozme]

Where are you physically based?

Midwest USA

 

[Tirellan]

Check if there are any conventions accessible to you, they often have writing workshops with guest aditors and agents. You may also find a writing group by asking around other writers at the con.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Also, just to say not to rule out virtual groups. Mine are all around the UK (and Australia!) and we only ever managed one meet up in an early format of the current group.

How did it happen? Well, I got here, put up lots of crits - a lot!- and critted on others. After a couple of months I put up a thread asking if anyone would consider betaing for me - by then, people knew me on crits and whether they could bear to look at a longer piece, and how I take feedback. Hex and Alchemist volunteered and they did a readthrough.

Later, Crystal Haven popped up and excerpt on crits I liked and I sent her a PM to say so and we swopped crits. Soon after, Hex approached me regarding a writing group and as all four of us had need of critique partners and were close to the same level of writing (I was the most undeveloped of the group, as I recalll) and we formed a virtual writing group. Along the way others have joined, and left, and the focus has shifted a bit (we try to keep a balance of sf and fantasy and age ranges so it suits the range of members, so not too much YA focus, or fantasy, or adult, or romance, or whatever) and we take breaks from time to time. I also pull on other betas - especially Thaddeus who approached me looking a comedy beta and we regularly exchange stuff, and Harebrain because he is exceptionally good at finding the bits that don't work - from time to time.

So, yes, posting regularly, making links and a bit of luck in being asked.

 

[NbDawn]

Getting any kind of feedback has been very helpful for me. The first feedback I received was because I posted part of my story on my blog and got comments on it. But since my blog is not well known, the comments were few. I also got some feedback from people at a local writer's group I joined. One guy was just plain mean while the others were quite helpful. A recent place I was able to get feedback from was through a site called Simbi where people exchange services. I got some really good feedback there, though not everyone that offered followed through. I also received some really good feedback here. The final thing I will try is getting paid help.

 

[Overread]

The other good thing about networking with fellow writers is that there are things you'll realise and discover and learn that you didn't even know that you don't know to know about them. Furthermore you'll pick up things that might save you a huge headache.

You don't have to do it here on Chrons, you should do it in a place you want to do it with; but of course many here have benefited from what Chrons community can offer and thus will encourage you to take part and get involved here.

 

[millymollymo]

Aside from Chrons, it's worth checking out the Orbit writing groups. You have to be a member of the British Science Fiction Association to apply but
you don't have to be in Britain to be a member. Many people have seen publication through the groups. You'll also get some good reading material through the post!

 

[sozme]

Aside from Chrons, it's worth checking out the Orbit writing groups. You have to be a member of the British Science Fiction Association to apply but
you don't have to be in Britain to be a member. Many people have seen publication through the groups. You'll also get some good reading material through the post!

IS there a website for the groups? Or do you join the BSFA first?

 

[pambaddeley]

In the past, I attended various face to face writing groups and workshops. The feedback was variable. I also did a lot of crits on Critique Circle but although I built up a lot of credits, I found few people reciprocated. I was spending a lot of time critting what was mostly beginners' work needing a lot of commenting, and getting very superficial returns or not at all. So I'm now in an email based group where we send round a few chapters every 2 months.

 

[sozme]

In the past, I attended various face to face writing groups and workshops. The feedback was variable. I also did a lot of crits on Critique Circle but although I built up a lot of credits, I found few people reciprocated. I was spending a lot of time critting what was mostly beginners' work needing a lot of commenting, and getting very superficial returns or not at all. So I'm now in an email based group where we send round a few chapters every 2 months.

This is the problem I am having with Scribophile and Critic Circle.

 

[Overread]

That's why networking is so important; often as not the beginner to early intermediate is easy to push through and get feedback on - going higher is difficult because those who can give such feedback often don't just want to give it to anyone because it takes time to give such detailed input. And there's nothing worse than spending time giving and then getting nothing back (not even a thanks) or sometimes getting snapped at as someone disagrees and attacks instead of debating or taking a more respectful approach.

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

On scribophile, they've got quite a few specialist groups, such as the Ubergroup and the Beta Readers group. Some of these, you can request to join (it isn't automatic), some like the Ubergroup, you have to be invited to. In the case of the Ubergroup, you're placed in small (4-6 people) sub-group for a particular genre. You crit each others' stuff once a week, on a six-week cycle. If a group isn't working for you, you can ask to be reassigned. It works quite well, although it requires some work to get noticed enough to be invited in (I think you can request consideration as well), and you get consistent crits because you're dealing with the same people week after week.
In the Beta reader group, you get placed in a sub-group of 4 people or so, and you each take a week or two (depending on size) to read one person's WIP. then there's a group discussion for an hour, and you move on to the next. These tend to be two-month cycles.
If you really don't want to get into this, check out kboards. There are multiple people who do paid beta reading, and you can get references and testimonials from other members. It's far cheaper than an editor, since it's generally strictly big-picture stuff. The only downside is that the good ones are backlogged. I just had an email convo with one, and she couldn't look at my latest before end of October.
If you want free beta readers, there are forums/threads on this forum, AbsoluteWrite, and probably others. Most of them, though (to the extent that I've looked) are looking for beta swaps. And I've found that, in a lot of cases, it's junior members who are probably there mostly to arrange a beta for their own book. No real feel for how good they are.

So yeah, there are a lot of options. Some take more work than others. Some cost more than others.

 

[millymollymo]

IS there a website for the groups? Or do you join the BSFA first?

There's no website for Orbit so join first, sozme. The BSFA has info and updates on the writing groups in every mailing.

 

[sozme]

On scribophile, they've got quite a few specialist groups, such as the Ubergroup and the Beta Readers group. Some of these, you can request to join (it isn't automatic), some like the Ubergroup, you have to be invited to. In the case of the Ubergroup, you're placed in small (4-6 people) sub-group for a particular genre. You crit each others' stuff once a week, on a six-week cycle. If a group isn't working for you, you can ask to be reassigned. It works quite well, although it requires some work to get noticed enough to be invited in (I think you can request consideration as well), and you get consistent crits because you're dealing with the same people week after week.
In the Beta reader group, you get placed in a sub-group of 4 people or so, and you each take a week or two (depending on size) to read one person's WIP. then there's a group discussion for an hour, and you move on to the next. These tend to be two-month cycles.
If you really don't want to get into this, check out kboards. There are multiple people who do paid beta reading, and you can get references and testimonials from other members. It's far cheaper than an editor, since it's generally strictly big-picture stuff. The only downside is that the good ones are backlogged. I just had an email convo with one, and she couldn't look at my latest before end of October.
If you want free beta readers, there are forums/threads on this forum, AbsoluteWrite, and probably others. Most of them, though (to the extent that I've looked) are looking for beta swaps. And I've found that, in a lot of cases, it's junior members who are probably there mostly to arrange a beta for their own book. No real feel for how good they are.

So yeah, there are a lot of options. Some take more work than others. Some cost more than others.

Thanks for the tip. I applied to the Ubergroup. Looks promising. Hope they pick me.

 

[JBallard]

So I have tried some of the major sites out there... i.e. Critique Circle, Scribophile, OnlineWritingWorkshop. So far, I think the best critiques come from OWW (not too surprising since its genre-oriented and a pay-for site). Problem is, it takes forever (sometimes several weeks) to get those critiques.

The other 2 (Scribophile and CC) are bad for multiple reasons. First, the writers there are generally novice, which is perfectly fine EXCEPT that a.) the critiques from new writers are often quite useless and b.) having to critique the writing there is a huge chore, with most submissions essentially looking for the critiquer to proof-read their work and make grammatical/major structure changes for them. Even if you do happen across someone who knows what they are talking about, they will often give you a half-assed critique because they are only interested in rapidly accumulating points/karma/whatever currency so they can submit their own work.

Anyway, what is your opinion on these different critique sites? (you don't have to bash any specific site, just asking for your general opinion on this resource).

Do you think paid workshops or courses would be more beneficial and why?
I guess the reason for this thread ultimately is to see what you all think about paid workshops vs. these online critique websites. My hope is that because these courses/workshops cost so much money, you are really only going to get the people who are serious about writing and willing to put in the time on their critiques AND their submissions (so that critiquing their work isn't pure torture).

The only example I can think of here are the Writer's Digest courses. They are somewhere in the range of $700-1000, and seem to be in the format of an online classroom setting. Do you know of any others?

I just asked for a refund on the Writer's Digest University course. I paid $500 and was surprised to see only two other people signed up. After two posts from each participant, the "instructor" answered with the boilerplate reply "Thanks for sharing." It was a farce. Does anyone know of any courses or workshops that are worth a damn for the advanced writer who wants to publish? I'd love to hear.

 

[Dan Jones]

I just asked for a refund on the Writer's Digest University course. I paid $500 and was surprised to see only two other people signed up. After two posts from each participant, the "instructor" answered with the boilerplate reply "Thanks for sharing." It was a farce.

Sorry to hear that, hope you got the refund. There are probably a lot of charlatans out there. The Society of Authors (UK) has details of certain courses and prizes that are available for authors, and if they're listed by the Society then they should be of good quality.

I'd stick with what I've said for a while now and recommend getting yourself into a good writing group. It might take a while to figure out who suits your style and tastes and who will offer you an opinion you can trust and aligns with what you want to achieve, but it's invaluable IMO.

 

[millymollymo]

I feel it right that I update the old post regarding Orbit. BSFA has been busy with the updating of things so here: BSFA - Writing Groups

 

[sknox]

>the advanced writer who wants to publish?
I really think that would be a good editor. Alas, good editors are not only hard to find, they're expensive and they're hard to keep.

The fallacy of any art workshop, imo, is that it has to proceed as if everyone were not only at the same skill level but at the same point in their artistic life. Which means that necessarily parts of the workshop will be too simple, some too difficult or abstract, and some simply irrelevant.

Now, plenty of people have gone to plenty of writing workshops and report success. This could be the success of the shotgun (a few fragments hit the mark), could be that the real benefit was the time spent with the teacher (in which case we're really back to the Good Editor scenario), and it could be the attendee just got damn lucky.

I don't mind that editors are expensive. What I mind is that I have to waste an entire book and years of my life to find out *this* wasn't the right one. Then do it again. And again. And again, until I luck out. Only to find the editor moves on after two books, or whatever. I want a Good Editor from the first book and then I want them on retainer!

I want a mentor....

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I find my bricks and mortar group is one of my best sources for feedback. Inverness Playwrights are really good for scripts. ForWords for everything else. Being able to read work out is a bonus and knowing the people giving the feedback is also good.

I also get feedback from my degree course and put things into XPO North (I don't know if you have to live into the Highlands) and use their 1-2-1 services.

Making connections here and elsewhere has been such an important part of writing for me. I get so excited when a chrons member releases work and it does well. It's almost as big a buzz as my own work doing something.

My confidence in my writing has come from better and more experienced writers having faith in my work. My problem is that I am not that desperate to publish.