Quasi-Chaucerian voice in modern fiction

[Phyrebrat]

Hi,

The curse of research is upon me. It happens...

My head has been turned by the phenomenally good 'horror*' movie The Witch. The trailer here may be of more use as it opens with Ralph Ineson's wonderful voice doing the kind of thing I'm after...(and no he's not playing 'Finchy' from The Office )

It's set in C17th New England and the language used is very archaic. Of course it's not Chaucerian, maybe Chaucerian-lite, but Saucy-Chaucy obviously predates the time period by a couple hundred years but it's got me excited about my wip - and handwringing...

The dialogue is beautiful - not A Room with a View-beautiful, but in terms of thee, thou, and all that, along with the odd syntax order change, it's really great.

So great, in fact that I want to write my 1170s and 1340s stuff more archaically.

My intention is this: write the story as I have been, and then finding someone to cod-translate it with me. I want it to be accessible to a reader, but to differentiate it from modern use. The problem I've had (in my mania) is that I feel the plummy 1700s dialogue I've used is just right IMO, but I'm using a similar tone in the 1170s.

I don't know how to address this as I don't want to write in french, but I want to give the impression of early language.

Any resources or connections you might have would be appreciated.

pH

*It's more of a historical supernatural fable/moral tale - as are all good horrors IMO

 

[ratsy]

Phyre, I don't have anything to help you but I really enjoyed the Witch too. It was very cool to see a movie use such period accurate ( I can only assume ) language, and it was tremendously well done. Actually they did it all well. And the actors were perfect. That guy's voice was amazing for the role.

Good luck though!

 

[Clockworkbot]

Hi,
My intention is this: write the story as I have been, and then finding someone to cod-translate it with me. I want it to be accessible to a reader, but to differentiate it from modern use. The problem I've had (in my mania) is that I feel the plummy 1700s dialogue I've used is just right IMO, but I'm using a similar tone in the 1170s.

Do you just want the dialogue to be in Olde English, or for the whole story to be written in that style?

 

[Phyrebrat]

I just want a bit of a discernible change between eras. They're 1170s, 1349, 1760s, 1850-60s, 2016. The main story is set 2016 but so far I've written 68k which is only the 1700s and first third of 1170s, so it's quite a huge first draft.

pH

 

[Clockworkbot]

Sorry - my question was: is the main text is in the language of the particular era that it's set in, or is it just the dialogue of that chapter's era?

 

[The Judge]

All I can suggest for the 1340s stuff is to immerse yourself in Chaucer which will give you some words which are near enough modern English that they would be recognisable in context. Most of his stuff is written in poem form, so word order might not be so easy to find, but I'm pretty sure some of the Tales are in prose. I never got beyond the Prologue, so I can't volunteer to help in translating it, I'm afraid.

Adam Thorpe's Ulverton only starts c1650ish I think, so is a bit late for your 1340s, but might still be worth a look to see how he handles the voices of the different ages. His Hodd might be of greater help for the 1170s bit. The book-blog notes I made when I read it: a re-telling of the Robin Hood legend via the memories of a 13th century monk, but without all the really-a-gentleman, giving-to-the-poor nonsense. The voice of the first person narrator is very well written giving the tale the ring of authenticity – all squalor, violence and religion, and distinctly "other" – but for me the story is weakened by the conceit that the monk's manuscript has been lost, found, translated, the original destroyed, the translation lost, found, yada yada yada, complete with the 20th century translator's foreword and footnotes. As that suggests, the frame story is a bit clumsy to my mind, but the narrative itself is compelling. I should still have it, so I can lend it to you if you want a shufti.


NB clockwork's comment reminds me of one of the Cadfael stories, An Excellent Mystery, I think. Ellis Peters wrote in neutral modern English, ie no jarring modernisms but no attempt at ye olde speech in either narrative or dialogue. However, in that one story a character writes a letter, and in that she uses a c1140s written style, and I never did make up my mind whether I thought it worked. On the one hand it was cleverly done, and felt old and authentic. On the other it made no sense someone wrote in a far more stilted way than anyone spoke. Make of that what you will.

 

[Phyrebrat]

@Clockworkbot yes, just the dialogue. Here is something that sounds so modern for 1170s but kind of shows what I'm trying to do:

‘Betsy!’
‘You named your horse?’
He ignored the question. ‘What have you done with her? By God’s…’
‘For a man toiling on nun’s business, you curse in volume.’
‘I am not on nun’s business,’ he mumbled and clambered out of the shallow pit. ‘I must have my horse.’
‘Truly, I do not have him.’ She kept her distance, still.
‘Her!’
Alaina burst into laughter. ‘In truth? So, the woman rides the man… I’d learnt the opposite.’
‘Cease your witless prattle,’ he said, straightening up and brushing his mud-spoiled cloak.
‘I heard the beat of free hooves just before you woke,’ she said, pointing beyond him to the small section of land with the ancient burial mounds.

Ah, I might check out Hodd, your Hon, thanks. Speaking of Chaucer, I did find a great resource - a six page PDF phrase book of that time period, but it would as stupid to use it as it would to write in Latin, French, Old English etc. and I wondered if 'cod-Chaucering' it might be even more ill-advised.

I wish I could just write the present and Victorian era sections but the 1170s is the foundation (no pun intended) so I need to get it down before them or the tail'll be wagging the dog.

pH

 

[The Judge]

If I were writing it, I don't think I'd do much more than you have in this extract -- it's clearly not C20th, but it's intelligible.


One point, though, I don't know if you saw that I'd been to a talk on medieval agriculture. One point the speaker made is that peasants were attached to their livestock (the ones used, I imagine, eg oxen pulling drays, as opposed to the ones fattened up for eating or selling) and it was common for horses to be named. So I don't think she'd be so surprised, nor he so embarrassed at naming the mare. I'm not so sure about "Betsy" as a name, though. (And surely it's him riding the mare, so male riding female, or have I missed something??)

 

[Phyrebrat]

A-ha... I just noted your Cadfael edit! Sneaky...

I'll see if I have that episode.

Re Betsy... The horse is male and borrowed from the 'nearby' abbots at St Pritchett's Abbey... She is remarking on him getting the gender wrong - Gilbert's a bit , er, ineffective - and the line will be changed as per your advice on them naming livestock to something like 'you named your horse 'Betsy'?' Which actually works better, I think, so thanks!

This era has to have a lighter touch so I'm trying to inch in a little humour here and there. Betsy was the silliest name I could come up with. You think it's too modern/Victorian?

pH

 

[Biskit]

I've done 17thC re-enactment and the speech pattern of the period is, so far as I am aware, is markedly differently from Chaucer's period. The one thing which jarred for me is the use of contractions:
By God’s…
I’d learnt the opposite
I am not on nun’s business

17thC would be what we would call more formal
In the name of God
I had learned the opposite
I am not conducting the business of a nun (this one I struggled to 'translate')

Having said all that, I would add two huge caveats:

Most of the re-enactment I have been involved with was either being a peasant and using a thick Mummerset accent, or people playing the part of period nobility who would be taught to speak properly, training in things like rhetoric and certainly for the 17thC period, any self-respecting gentleman would be trained in the use of gesture as well - a 'standard' language of body posture which even had their own published manuals. So, speech and physical mannerisms would vary depending on the social status of your characters.

If you go too far in period realism, it becomes unreadable to a modern audience.

 

[The Judge]

Ah, I hadn't cottoned on it was male -- presumably a gelding? Even allowing for him being a bit simple, would he really not know, though?!

"Betsy" did seem later to me, but I can't find anything about its first use, nor of Elizabeth, though I think Bess was the most common diminutive in the 1500s. It's certainly a daft-sounding name for a horse! But if it's borrowed, wouldn't it have a name already? Perhaps it's been given a high-sounding name by the abbot, which Gilbert mangles? (I've always fancied Daisy as a name for a horse. Why should cows get to keep it?! But I see for humans it's likely a pet form of Margaret (?how??), which is 1300, though as the name for the flower it's far older.)

 

[Phyrebrat]

@Biskit thanks. I completely agree with you on both points. Perhaps my initial waffle was unclear; at the mo my different periods sound too similar and I want them to sound markedly different whilst still being comprehensible to anyone. The contractions have been a bit of inconsistent artistic license. I think they're too modern so have been using them only when to do otherwise reads as fussy and awkward.

TJ, shall I steal Daisy then? I steered clear of Bess because of Dick Turpin (and Sean Pertwee's Doc Who!!). I'll put in a line about him forgetting and choosing Betsy or Daisy - it'll allow for another comedy beat. Thanks. You know if I ever get this pubbed I'll have to write your name on the cover, too

pH

 

[ErikB]

@Clockworkbot yes, just the dialogue. Here is something that sounds so modern for 1170s but kind of shows what I'm trying to do:

‘Betsy!’
‘You named your horse?’
He ignored the question. ‘What have you done with her? By God’s…’
‘For a man toiling on nun’s business, you curse in volume.’
‘I am not on nun’s business,’ he mumbled and clambered out of the shallow pit. ‘I must have my horse.’
‘Truly, I do not have him.’ She kept her distance, still.
‘Her!’
Alaina burst into laughter. ‘In truth? So, the woman rides the man… I’d learnt the opposite.’
‘Cease your witless prattle,’ he said, straightening up and brushing his mud-spoiled cloak.
‘I heard the beat of free hooves just before you woke,’ she said, pointing beyond him to the small section of land with the ancient burial mounds.

pH

1170's eh?

"Betsy!"
"So named your horse?"
Ignoring the question.
"What has become of her? By God's..."
"For one laboring a nun's tasks, thy tongue is indeed foul."
"Hardly a nun's task!" He mumbled climbing out of the shallow pit. "I must insist on my horse!"
"Truly, I have him naught." She kept her distance from him.
"Her!"
Alaina burst into laughter. "In truth? So doth woman ride man... though opposite I'd known."
"Stay thy witless prattle!" He snapped as he straightened and brushed his mudsoaked cloak.
"I did mark the flight of hooves only a short time fore thou woke." Her finger extended to the land beyond him harboring ancient burial mounds.

Dark age history is another area of special interest to me. This is more along the lines of what I would expect as the discussion you shared.

True structure from that time period would be VERY difficult for modern readers to follow, but this is far closer while being manageable.

Hope that it helps. Best wishes with your project. Cheers!

 

[Phyrebrat]

Thanks Erik! I really like your suggestions - although you've misused 'naught'.

It's just the kind of thing I'm after but has probably added another year onto my completion date

pH

 

[ErikB]

Yeah I know. Realized after I had to go run some errands.

But you are most welcome. All the best to you! They say anything worth doing is worth doing right. You'll knock it out of the park.

There are some penguin books that are historical tales set in Iceland and though the stories took place in the 900's through 1200's the original compilations were around the mid to late 1100's.

The Icelandic Sagas will give you a great feel for some of the older narrative styles. Try Hrafnkle's Saga, or Egil's Saga.

Cheers!