Is Fantasy stuck in the mud?

Stewart Hotston

Stewart Hotston

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A confession. I read a lot of fantasy as a teenage but I read very little now. I read A LOT but I read a mix of stuff although it rarely features fantasy.

The fantasy I really like is stuff like Steven Erikson. I've recently tried to get back into it but found that it's pretty much the same field as the one I got bored with twenty years ago. It's not particularly diverse, it's largely about the same issues (so, so often barely concealed coming of age dramas about little boys with potency issues - especially grimdark).

On the other side I've been pointed to some amazing, groundbreaking sci fi over the last five years - whether it's Jeff Vandermeer, Adam Roberts, China Mieville or a dozen others (and yes you *could* argue that Mieville writes fantasy as much as he writes Sci Fi - perhaps Weird Fic is better).

So I have two questions:

1. is Fantasy stuck in the proverbial mud - unable to find new stories, tell new tales or make a proper challenge to the people reading it?

2 If you think the answer is no - would you do me the delight of pointing me in the direction of stuff that's epically ground breaking? I'm after stuff that challenges the society I live in, its accepted ideas about what's good, evil, progress and legacy, acceptable or taboo. In other words, the best that fiction can offer.

I'm kind of hoping that I've just been poor at discovering new voices and here seems as good a place as any to ask!
 
May I suggest not reading the new stuff if that is what you are after, modern fantasy has lost it's oomph. If you are looking for thought provoking hmmm....

Corean Chronicles - A wonderful series that questions the way we live in the modern world and our ever growing need for more, better, newer, smarter do-da's and what exact price are we actually willing to pay for these advancements in science.

The Death Gate Cycle - Wonderful series that takes a good look at the price of needless hate and racial discrimination and the effects of this upon our world. If you want a series that pushes the thought buttons this is one of the best.

Callanish - This is a stand alone novel and if you don't come to a new understanding about slavery and what freedom really means then I don't know...
 
Stewart Hotston said:
it's pretty much the same field as the one I got bored with twenty years ago
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I'm finding the complete opposite - that it's becoming increasingly more varied and diverse, and challenging boundaries as to what defines fantasy.

It depends what appeals to your tastes, though - there's certainly very little with an actual metaphysical dimension that aims to challenge a reader's way of thinking about the real world.

Stewart Hotston said:
The fantasy I really like is stuff like Steven Erikson.
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Erickson's series is extremely fantastical. I'm afraid I tend to avoid that end of the genre to focus more on the historical fantasy side. However, the authors you cite - not least Vandermeer and Mieville - are very much weird fantasy. It might be better to look for more recommendations from that side of the genre?

See if these discussions help:
List of Mind-Bending SF/F Books
Books like those by Jack Vance.
 
Well according the agents my book didn't fit the standard fantasy mould however reading your list of authors I doubt it's your thing either. In many ways the story is generic and it's a standard epic fantasy.

I haven't read any epic fantasy recently as I'm currently writing an urban fantasy.
 
Maybe look at Terry Pratchett. He took Ye Olde Fantasy worlde and expanded it in several directions with a number of satires on very real world themes. His earlier books are more fantasy parodies but the further you progress, the more he looks at what it is to be human.

Of course, Pratchett is hardly modern.

On a more general answer to this - I'm not sure. There's a lot of very diverse fantasy on the edges but I do feel like the mainstream field hasn't changed much. It's had a new coat of paint but not a lot else.
 
Difficult question. As far as I can tell:

Diversity in the modern sense (gender/race/sexuality) is a big thing at the moment and probably will stay that way. I would expect there to be more issues-based novels in this area, especially in YA. So there's more diversity there, although of course it depends on the book.

Coming-of-age stories still seem to be popular, which means that stories about young people are popular too (there's a big overlap although they're not the same thing). Grimdark is different, but can become samey pretty quickly, especially if all it does is reverse the conventions of older stories for effect.

In terms of settings, I think it is a bit more diverse. The standard faux-medieval Europe setting is still there, but there are lots of others, often involving some big magical twist that's subtler than "some people are wizards". However, as Brian says, I don't think there is all that much that's genuinely metaphysical in the same way as, say, Philip K Dick.

Actually, it sounds as if you might like Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock or maybe even The Traveller in Black by John Brunner. It's not new, but it's very good and unusual.
 
thanks all! This is a great set of options. I've read Abercrombie and Lawrence and liked their initial stuff (the earlier stuff) but, at the risk of being vulnerable, I found it all a bit samey after a while. It's very 'modern' in that the sensibilities are very modern but beyond that after the first trilogy I simply didn't feel compelled.

I'd say that Vandermeer is sci-fi, but I admit it's probably potato/potatoe.

I'm going to try Glen Cooke straight away.

When people talk about diversity though I tend to experience this as there simply being people with different skins or sexes but they tend to have exactly the same preoccupations as all the other characters, which are generally filtered through the dominant cultural starting point. By that I don't mean it's specifically racist (which it isn't) nor sexist (again, it's not) it just seems to miss the fact that peoples from other cultures and backgrounds really don't necessarily think like I do. I always run a Franz Fanon test - namely do all the characters namely think about the world in the same way? If they do then it's failed to actually get the point of diversity. (Franz Fanon was a French/Algerian writer who wrote the 'Wretched of the Earth' in response to the Algerian revolution and made the profound point that other people actually don't want to be like us and part of their rebellion is a rejection of everything we stand for not simply the every day injustices they suffered at their colonial rulers' hands.)

Brian - do you have any recommendations? I'm hungry to populate my shelves with a few more possibilities.
 
I think that the sameyness of fantasy depends on the subgenre rather than a blank thing covering all fantasy. I I look at a lot of urban fantasy it all seems to be much of the same, dark events, a rather anti hero coming to save the day, evil forces and grey moral high grounds. With vampires, zombies or supernatural creature of choice.

But then you get fantasy like Riyria Revelations, Haruki Murakami, Neil Gaiman and others that write fantasy that is not just fantasy. There is an undercurrent of complexity of character and story that makes every story unique.
 
Stewart Hotston said:
1. is Fantasy stuck in the proverbial mud - unable to find new stories, tell new tales or make a proper challenge to the people reading it?
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No, I don't think so. Much like Brian, I think the reverse is true: there are dozens and dozens of subgenres that just didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago, and crossovers with other genres. The advent of e-books and self-publishing have made it easier than ever for books that would never find a traditional publisher (ie because they're "niche") to get into my grubby little hands. Of course, the flip side of that is with thousands and thousands of books published/self-published each year it can be difficult to find something original, with a unique voice, or something that veers from, say, the traditional hero-goes-on-a-quest model that has been prevalent for so long. Don't get me wrong, I like books like that, but I read a lot of Fantasy and there are moments when I get a little bored with variations on the same theme and crave something fresh and different. Finding them isn't always easy (especially because so many self-published books are so far off the quality standards of those from publishing houses) but I find I often enjoy those that are startlingly different that much more.

Stewart Hotston said:
would you do me the delight of pointing me in the direction of stuff that's epically ground breaking?
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Sure, here are a few of varying degrees of epic-ness. Some of them may just be done very well rather than being truly original. Apologies if none are new to you.:)

The Rook by Daniel O'Malley:
Urban Fantasy, but one of the best of its kind and incredibly well written. Interesting premise, too (check out the first page to see).

Sandman Slim by Richard Kadrey:
Ultra-violent, ultra-sweary Urban Fantasy. If Motorhead were a book, this is the book they'd be.

The Mirror Empire by Kameron Hurley:
Epic Fantasy, but very distinctive.

The Book of Phoenix by Nnedi Okorafor:
Unlike anything I've ever read. Definitely meets your criteria.:)

Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel:
In many ways a riff on your typical post-apocalyptic future story but just beautifully written

Jennifer Government by Max Barry:
A comic, satirical look at the near-future, disturbing precisely because it seems entirely plausible. His novel Lexicon is also brilliant, with a great central concept.

Osama by Lavie Tidhar:
Didn't really do it for me, but it's different to the usual.
 
I read Osama with interest. It was a strange book with a great story that wasn't edited well enough to come out as strongly as it should have.

Station Eleven. I liked it and it's hard for me to be impressed by apocalyptic stories because they so often feel like a rich first world person meme writ large where the other has overwhelmed us...

Book of Phoenix looks awesome as does The Rook :)
 
I think a certain problem with this question, at least as posed, is that the title and the opening post address two slightly different things.

Has Fantasy as an entire genre got stuck in the mud? No. The genre is broader than ever.

Has Fantasy in the vein of Erikson got stuck in the mud? I think yes. I think Epic Fantasy is, by and large, stuck on the stories told by Tolkien and Moorcock and is busy trying to retell them in ever greater detail with ever wilder coatings of paint. The architecture below remains the same though. I can't say that I read Abercrombie and fell the progress.

While I am unable to add many names, I am convinced that the OP can find a great many fantasies of the type he wants. But finding them within the Epic Fantasy field? That is a different kettle of fish.

And as such, I would recommend reading further into the genre.

That is, assuming I took the right cue from him saying he likes books in the vein of Erikson.
 
The Big Peat said:
I think a certain problem with this question, at least as posed, is that the title and the opening post address two slightly different things.

Has Fantasy as an entire genre got stuck in the mud? No. The genre is broader than ever.

Has Fantasy in the vein of Erikson got stuck in the mud? I think yes. I think Epic Fantasy is, by and large, stuck on the stories told by Tolkien and Moorcock and is busy trying to retell them in ever greater detail with ever wilder coatings of paint. The architecture below remains the same though. I can't say that I read Abercrombie and fell the progress.

While I am unable to add many names, I am convinced that the OP can find a great many fantasies of the type he wants. But finding them within the Epic Fantasy field? That is a different kettle of fish.

And as such, I would recommend reading further into the genre.

That is, assuming I took the right cue from him saying he likes books in the vein of Erikson.
Click to expand...

*Rolls up sleeves and gets ready to defend my genre*

I have to say that I strongly disagree with this this idea that Epic fantasy is going know where as there is no epic fantasy being written anymore (or very little of it). The new genres have overtaken the good old fashioned and yes in some cases a little samey but that depended on what you read.

The way I see it where fantasy has gotten stuck is in these new subgernes. They have grown very fast and have gotten very stylized very fast. Faster than they have grown in some cases. I mean what exactly is the deference between Glen Cook's Garret Files and Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden? Or for that matter the rest of the dark urban fantasy scene, they all seem very alike to the point where if you are reading on then pick up another, not sure you would know the difference.

Same for grimdark fantasy, or what people think of when they think epic fantasy these days as few people write epic fantasy anymore. Grimdark is boring as boredom. G.R.R.M, Sanderson, Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence, Luke Scull, Glen Cook (the rest of his works), Brent Weeks? What exactly separates their books from one another?
 
@The Big Peat you see I find myself agreeing pretty wholeheartedly with @Elventine. Diversity of form doesn't necessarily translate into quality of substance. Personally, I don't need another supernatural police procedural - 10 of them is enough already...

You're right in that my OP was provocative, but hey, the discussion that's followed has been brilliant and has got me some good recommendations. BUT, I stand by my initial challenge - that fantasy's stuck in the mud. I'm not saying it's alone - you only have to read the plethora of 'historical fiction' that seems to be the Booker's only real genre for selection these days and the same accusation stands. Those books are very diverse but they're also self-selecting and bound by convention.

When I ask if we're stuck in the mud (and I ask as a sometime writer of fantasy myself) I ask if the substance of the stories we're telling is stale. You could argue old tropes like Fantasy is a reflection of conservative ideals within western society, but I think that's unnuanced and lazy. However, when I wander into my local bookshop, the fantasy section is stocked with lookalikes. Sure some of the characters are female, or of colours other than white but, as a reader, I end up looking for the weird stuff. Finch by Vandermeer was like a shot of adrenaline - I literally couldn't wait to pick it up again each time I had to put it down. As I think about it, it seems to me more that Weird Fic is where authors are bridging between Sci Fi and epic Fantasy to ask really interesting questions via really smart stories.

It could sound like I'm only interested in 'worthy' books. (I might be...) However, I love a bit of pulp just like the next person, but I do crave fresh takes, originality and turning stuff on its head, not for its own sake but because that's the heart of the writer concerned.

As I write, I'm reminded of the Golem and the Djinn which is a fantastic novel, so is the Night Circus by Erin Morgernstern.
 
Check out Jack London's Novel The Star Rover Its his only fantasy novel, Its a straitjacketed Death Row Inmate who discovers he can Astral Project himself into his past laves at will. You can find in on Gutenberg

The Kane the Mystic Saga by Karl Edward Wagner 5 books

1. Bloodstone
2. Darkness Weaves
3. Dark Crusade
4. Death Angels Shadow
5. Nightwinds

The Dark World by Henry Kuttner

Black God's Kiss by C L Moore
Magus Rex by Jack Lovejoy
John The Balladeer by Manley Wade Wellman

Mythago Woods by Robert Holdstock
The Anubis Gate by Tim Powers

The House on the Borderland by William Hope Hodgson

The High House and Its sequel the False House by James Stoddard

The Forgotten Beasts of Eld by Patricia McKillip

The Reign of Wizardry By Jack Williamson

The Ship of Ishtar by Abraham Merritt

The City of the Singing Flame and Its sequel story Beyond the Singing Flame by Clark Ashton Smith

The Dreaming Jewels by Theodore Sturgeon

THe Broken Sword by Poul Anderson

And the Devil Will Drag You Under by Jack Chalker

Tales From the Dying Earth by Jack Vance

Merlin's Ring by H Warner Munn
 
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Diversity of form does not necessarily equal quality of substance but it is something of a direct answer to your question 1. If fantasy is achieving ever greater diversity of form - and no, I don't include 10,000 Dresden clones to go with 10,000 LotR clones there - then yes its able to find new stories. Whether they're the new stories you're hoping for - or I'm hoping for - is besides the point.

The problem is, as you've encountered, wrinkling out the interesting stuff in a crowded market. That's part of the reason I drifted away from reading fantasy myself. I took the point of view that if new authors would serve me much the same as the old, I might as well stick with those I trust. I've dug out what people think is good in modern fantasy and mostly I've received more of the same. However, the dimensions of discussion are far wider than I thought fantasy was back in the day. E.g.

The Ballad of Black Tom - Victor LaValle

The Just City - Jo Walton

NK Jemisin - The Fifth Season

Robert Jackson Bennett - The City of Stairs


Note - none of these recommendations are personal but stuff I've remembered other people talking about and thought "I'll look at that some day".
 
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