Using dates In Fantasy Worlds

[Eli Grey]

Hello,

For clarification of the history of the world that is written already but still growing, I want to use dates (years) to make things clearer for the reader and myself. How do I incorporate dates without confusing my audience? It sounds easy enough but something is telling me it will be more complicated than I would like.

Any thoughts or ideas on this subject?

 

[Brian G Turner]

I had dates in my draft until near the end. Not many, but enough to provide an objective view of the movement of time.

But towards the end I deleted them - I'd written close third person, and wanted to keep the reader firmly in the character experience. That means I wanted the reader to understand the passing of time only through the characters' own reference of it.

Some might consider that being finicky, but I decided it made little sense to push the readers close to the characters, only to then pull away to provide an objective view of anything.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[hopewrites]

As a reader I appreciate knowing when lots of time has passed between things. Local time to the story.

I've read stories where the year count is explained, and stories where it isn't. 1350 counts an empire, 23 could be the life of a ruler... these notations give a perimeter for how developed the society that uses them feels it is. let's us readers know how long ago their origin story started.

I also like if a calendar year is to be referenced, a complete calendar appended front or back.

Adds depth to the world

 

[RX-79G]

One method that can work well is to create a "calendar" based on an important character or event. "1200 years after Sauron's defeat", "23 years after the Emperor was born", etc. While sounding informal, it accomplishes the same thing as Anno Domini without having to provide a separate tale to explain the calendar's origin, and it serves to emphasize the passage of time between the important events in the story without the reader having to do math.

Example: "Thor returned to Asgard in 907 AD, his illegitimate grandson took up arms in 1001 AD". OR "Thor's grandson took up arms in the 94th year since his return to Asgard". No math, and the importance of Thor's return becomes a "holy" event worthy of serving as the anchor to the calendar.

I think this method also fits well with the oral tradition where everything is told by internal reference. Using imposed dates feels more modern or academic.

 

[Eli Grey]

One method that can work well is to create a "calendar" based on an important character or event. "1200 years after Sauron's defeat", "23 years after the Emperor was born", etc. While sounding informal, it accomplishes the same thing as Anno Domini without having to provide a separate tale to explain the calendar's origin, and it serves to emphasize the passage of time between the important events in the story without the reader having to do math.

Example: "Thor returned to Asgard in 907 AD, his illegitimate grandson took up arms in 1001 AD". OR "Thor's grandson took up arms in the 94th year since his return to Asgard". No math, and the importance of Thor's return becomes a "holy" event worthy of serving as the anchor to the calendar.

I think this method also fits well with the oral tradition where everything is told by internal reference. Using imposed dates feels more modern or academic.

Thanks for this. I should mention that I do indicate the number of years that have passed since a certain event for much of the history I wrote. If I go back to include dates, I will need to do some math.

 

[Eli Grey]

I had dates in my draft until near the end. Not many, but enough to provide an objective view of the movement of time.

But towards the end I deleted them - I'd written close third person, and wanted to keep the reader firmly in the character experience. That means I wanted the reader to understand the passing of time only through the characters' own reference of it.

Some might consider that being finicky, but I decided it made little sense to push the readers close to the characters, only to then pull away to provide an objective view of anything.

Your mileage may vary.

I understand. I do picture my characters discussing events and referring to dates. I think I will build a timeline based on the history I have.

 

[RX-79G]

Thanks for this. I should mention that I do indicate the number of years that have passed since a certain event for much of the history I wrote. If I go back to include dates, I will need to do some math.

That's why I was suggesting using a relevant event to create your calendar, rather than events unrelated to your story - like the birth of Christ. It doesn't eliminate the math, but it keeps the events in a closer context to the offered date.

Think about how much easier it would be to understand the context of US history if the Independence Day was Year Zero and the War of 1812 was the War of '36.

 

[Theophania Elliott]

I'd say... whatever you choose to do, make it internally consistent.

For me, if I see dates that are obviously real-world in a fantasy world, it throws me off. Like, why does a world that didn't have the Emperor Augustus have the month of August? Why does a world without vikings have Tuesdays?

Taking your year-numbers from a significant event is a useful one - everybody does it, whether the date is static (2016 AD or 1483 AH) or whether it's counted from the accession of the current monarch (in this the 63rd year of the Reign of Our Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II).

It doesn't have to be complicated unless you want it to be, but providing people with a key will help a lot.

It's also worth noting that most people don't think about what year it is an awful lot (unless they have a job that involves writing a lot of dates) - what's more important is whether it's Monday or Tuesday, or whether it's 10am or lunchtime. The importance of dates will also vary with your setting - if you're pre-clocks, or pre-everybody-having-a-clock, numbers become even less relevant. If you work on a farm, it's not terribly important what the actual time is.

So, how important are dates to your story? If people are a bit hazy on the details of exactly when everything happens, does it really matter?

On the other hand, this can be a bit of a rabbit-hole. How far do you go? Once you've conquered dates, what do you do about weights and measures? If you start making everything up new, it can get so complicated that the reader is in danger of spending more time trying to work out what time it is and how far away things are than actually concentrating on the story.

 

[Overread]

Dates to me are important to establish within a story, but I feel that they should be as lightly used as possible. Intricate networks of dates are not what most people hold in their head when reading most stories and as a result a complex date system can quickly lose your readers; especially if you're inventing new words or have a world that isn't using the same system as in reality (with changed words).

One way you can get around it is to include an appendix or chronological history at the start. This way you can show a series of key historical events without boring the reader with a long history lesson. It also sits there as a very easy to check reference of information. As a reader if I get lost I want to find my way again quickly. Maps help orientate the reader; family trees can help people remember who is related to who; character descriptions can help people keep up with a huge cast etc.... These are all time honoured methods used in many fantasy stories.

 

[RX-79G]

So, how important are dates to your story? If people are a bit hazy on the details of exactly when everything happens, does it really matter?

True. You can say "4 years later" or "a few years later", and the latter will likely do everything required.

 

[Overread]

However it depends on context too.
A few years later to kingdom or an older established person is little change; but if its four years on someone who is 10 or 15 or even 20 then its suddenly a bigger change. You can't as easily start saying "a few years later" because the changes that are undergone are quite big to those characters during such years - both mentally, physically and often socially.

A reader can easily imagine an older person living a similar or at least not major changing life for years; but the younger the person goes the more that specific time block becomes important to understand.


Of course it also depends in the story - if you're doing a fast series of time jumps a few years here and there with a summary that adds it all up or at least gives a firm reference point works well.


I think the key is not to lose the reader in dates.
I think the other risk is that dates allow you to put a lot of historical context into a story; which is great; but can also mean that you might end up wasting time developing scenes and introducing characters who are going to be whisked away with time jumps or are historical references. I find this annoying in a book; esp at the start, because the writer is asking me the reader to invest into characters who are going to vanish within moments. It doesn't help that they are often at more interesting time and more interesting than the soon to appear novice adventurer/hero/character who is likely going to pick up the story and become the prime focus.

 

[RX-79G]

A few years later to kingdom or an older established person is little change; but if its four years on someone who is 10 or 15 or even 20 then its suddenly a bigger change.

That's true, but the reader is likely to take their cues not from the character's psychological view of time but from the narrator's.

 

[Eli Grey]

I'd say... whatever you choose to do, make it internally consistent.

For me, if I see dates that are obviously real-world in a fantasy world, it throws me off. Like, why does a world that didn't have the Emperor Augustus have the month of August? Why does a world without vikings have Tuesdays?

Taking your year-numbers from a significant event is a useful one - everybody does it, whether the date is static (2016 AD or 1483 AH) or whether it's counted from the accession of the current monarch (in this the 63rd year of the Reign of Our Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II).

It doesn't have to be complicated unless you want it to be, but providing people with a key will help a lot.

It's also worth noting that most people don't think about what year it is an awful lot (unless they have a job that involves writing a lot of dates) - what's more important is whether it's Monday or Tuesday, or whether it's 10am or lunchtime. The importance of dates will also vary with your setting - if you're pre-clocks, or pre-everybody-having-a-clock, numbers become even less relevant. If you work on a farm, it's not terribly important what the actual time is.

So, how important are dates to your story? If people are a bit hazy on the details of exactly when everything happens, does it really matter?

On the other hand, this can be a bit of a rabbit-hole. How far do you go? Once you've conquered dates, what do you do about weights and measures? If you start making everything up new, it can get so complicated that the reader is in danger of spending more time trying to work out what time it is and how far away things are than actually concentrating on the story.

Thanks for your input on this topic. I should mention that dates for events of the main story aren't important. It's the history I want to use the dates for. I also want to refer back to a certain date and have a character say, "yeah but that was almost two hundred years ago." Having historical dates or events to reference in the main story is what I'd like to do if and when it's necessary.

For years, what I'd like to do is count the same way we do.

As for months, I realize I'd have to find substitutes for them or just call each month time frame by the season it's in.

 

[Eli Grey]

I'd say... whatever you choose to do, make it internally consistent.

For me, if I see dates that are obviously real-world in a fantasy world, it throws me off. Like, why does a world that didn't have the Emperor Augustus have the month of August? Why does a world without vikings have Tuesdays?

Taking your year-numbers from a significant event is a useful one - everybody does it, whether the date is static (2016 AD or 1483 AH) or whether it's counted from the accession of the current monarch (in this the 63rd year of the Reign of Our Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II).

It doesn't have to be complicated unless you want it to be, but providing people with a key will help a lot.

It's also worth noting that most people don't think about what year it is an awful lot (unless they have a job that involves writing a lot of dates) - what's more important is whether it's Monday or Tuesday, or whether it's 10am or lunchtime. The importance of dates will also vary with your setting - if you're pre-clocks, or pre-everybody-having-a-clock, numbers become even less relevant. If you work on a farm, it's not terribly important what the actual time is.

So, how important are dates to your story? If people are a bit hazy on the details of exactly when everything happens, does it really matter?

On the other hand, this can be a bit of a rabbit-hole. How far do you go? Once you've conquered dates, what do you do about weights and measures? If you start making everything up new, it can get so complicated that the reader is in danger of spending more time trying to work out what time it is and how far away things are than actually concentrating on the story.

You have given me a lot to think about so thanks.

 

[Eli Grey]

Dates to me are important to establish within a story, but I feel that they should be as lightly used as possible. Intricate networks of dates are not what most people hold in their head when reading most stories and as a result a complex date system can quickly lose your readers; especially if you're inventing new words or have a world that isn't using the same system as in reality (with changed words).

One way you can get around it is to include an appendix or chronological history at the start. This way you can show a series of key historical events without boring the reader with a long history lesson. It also sits there as a very easy to check reference of information. As a reader if I get lost I want to find my way again quickly. Maps help orientate the reader; family trees can help people remember who is related to who; character descriptions can help people keep up with a huge cast etc.... These are all time honoured methods used in many fantasy stories.

This is very helpful and I'll definitely consider it. I agree that they should be used only when necessary. I'd hate to bog my reader down with tons of dates and new names for months or days, etc. An appendix or history timeline is something I always feel would help. In fact, now that I think about it, having one would most definitely encourage me to go ahead and dig deeper into my history and lore.

 

[Eli Grey]

As a reader I appreciate knowing when lots of time has passed between things. Local time to the story.

I've read stories where the year count is explained, and stories where it isn't. 1350 counts an empire, 23 could be the life of a ruler... these notations give a perimeter for how developed the society that uses them feels it is. let's us readers know how long ago their origin story started.

I also like if a calendar year is to be referenced, a complete calendar appended front or back.

Adds depth to the world

I agree with you 100%. Having a reference of some kind if you're going to use actual dates is a big help to readers and to the writer as well.

 

[hopewrites]

Appendices are an awesome way to invite those who love your world and characters deeper in while not dragging down those who only want to lightly touch your worlds.

They can be flicked to more easily than inbound passages, and can be written more concisely.

I've even seen time-date-location stamps used as chapter headings in stories where the characters could teleport not only between one place and another, but also one time and another.
The first few times I read the story I skipped the chapter headings (bad habit of mine. Picked it up when I realized most chapter headings were spoiler ridden.) and found it took me a few sentences, or even a paragraph or so to find out what was going on. After a few rereads I picked up on the headding tip and realized the pace of events was actually much tighter than I had been imagining.

 

[Eli Grey]

I do use a b.c. and an a.d. concept.

 

[ErikB]

For me, if I see dates that are obviously real-world in a fantasy world, it throws me off. Like, why does a world that didn't have the Emperor Augustus have the month of August? Why does a world without vikings have Tuesdays?

Just a footnote: ALL days of the week come from Norse origin. When Christians attempted converting the Scandinavian countries to their faith it was forbidden to speak the names of the elder Gods and Goddesses. So the Norse infused them into the days of the week.

Torsdag/Torstag - Thursday the day of Thor.
Onsdag/Wodenstag - Wednesday the day of Odin/Woden.
Tyrsdag/Tyrstag - Tuesday the day of The.
Frejdag/Freytag - Friday the day of Freja/Freya (or her brother Frej/Frey).

Etc.

And that's a great story point about alien worlds and linguistic earth references. Kudos!

 

[Overread]

I think that the more an author tries to use different names for days of the week and months of the year it can give an air of greater world building authenticity; but at the same time I think its got to be background information. The moment it becomes critical to the foreground information it can confuse a reader or at least lose them or frustraite if they've got to keep reminding themselves that Foreday comes before Farday but after Salveday in the mythological 3 day week.

Heck even something as simplistic as Game of Thrones huge climate cycles can take a while before the readers really appreciate and take them on board and can put them into context (The idea of a 10 year winter is hard to imagine at the start of the series - and its a long while before its really looked at in any depth to the fact that its not just purely a totally deep winter period - which would likely wipe out most larger species very quickly)