Reliable Latin translation?

[Phyrebrat]

Does anyone here speak Latin well?

I'm trying to translate 'Be silent and be still' and am reluctant to trust Google's translation which suggests:

Tace et obmutesce

This is needed for mid 1100s period. A stone has been placed in the jaw of a skeleton and carved with the Latin, to ensure the dead do not rise.

Is Google right?

Thanks

pH

 

[reiver33]

I tried

English - Latin online translation | Text translator | Free dictionary

And got the same

tace et obmutesce

 

[AnyaKimlin]

My Latin is far from good but tace does mean be silent. Mutus is speechless. But the Latin Dictionary says obmutesce is hold So it does seem to mean be silent and hold.

 

[Abernovo]

Pretty much fine I believe - but who are you addressing?
Latin is subject specific for word endings. You should be silent and be still, we should be...? You will be... (an order)?

For instance, requiescat in pace is 'they rest in peace'.

It's been twenty years since I really read any Latin texts, and my knowledge was patchy at best of times, although I remember occasional phrases.

 

[Toby Frost]

"It says 'Romans go home!'"

It's been a while since I did any Latin too! I believe "Tace" would be the singular imperative (commanding one person) of Taceo, to be quiet. "Tacete" would be for several people (so all the bodies in the graveyard, not just this one skeleton). I think "Noli surgere" would be "do not rise". Interestingly, Google gives dormio, to sleep, for "lie still". If you wanted it to be a bit cryptic, you could use "manere" for "remain", which would come out as "mane" or "manete" for single and plural respectively.

To further complicate things, this is almost certainly classical Latin that the Romans would have used. I'm not sure what state Latin would have been in by 1100, but is anyone going to object, especially given how simple the message is?

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

I've a feeling @The Judge might be able to help here.

 

[The Judge]

Ah, no. I did two years of it at school, but was pushed out of the O-level group and into the non-examinable Classical Studies instead, so my Latin is restricted to a few legal phrases like ratio decidendi and mutatis mutandis, and there's precious little call for those nowadays.

And just to confirm that medieval Latin isn't always the same as Classical Latin, but I've no idea wherein the differences lie.

Years ago I tracked down a site which helped out with problems of varying kinds and that had Latin and Greek specialists on hand to answer queries like this. I can't recall its name now, but I think I might have referred to it here on Chrons at one point. I'll go have a search.


EDIT: Yes, I did provide a link here, for the Greek side. It was Greek - Greek Culture - Cultures I imagine the Latin translations can be found from there.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Thanks for the help, omnes!

For instance, requiescat in pace is 'they rest in peace'.

Yes, I have often said this as I drag a feather across the bloodied neck of my target.

To further complicate things, this is almost certainly classical Latin that the Romans would have used. I'm not sure what state Latin would have been in by 1100, but is anyone going to object, especially given how simple the message is?

I know, you're right, but I'm a bit of pedant. I don't mind getting things wrong because of my actual ignorance, but if I can change those things that I can, then I want to. Your earlier point about plural and singular is a good one that I'd not even considered - it is just one person, so that's fine.

I realised at 5am that my brother's (who was an Egyptologist) best friend is a lecturer at the British Museum, so I have whatsapped her and see what she says, but she's in Petra ATM. In the meantime, I'll keep it as is.

pH

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Ah, no. I did two years of it at school, but was pushed out of the O-level group and into the non-examinable Classical Studies instead, so my Latin is restricted to a few legal phrases like ratio decidendi and mutatis mutandis, and there's precious little call for those nowadays

I survived into the 'O'-level group and did okay, but then I went to a strange little country primary school run by an elderly couple, and they taught the really old-fashioned Latin {Amo, amas, amat..., the sailor took the little boat (navicula, also a bone in the horse's foot) to the island of the druids, etc} from around 8 years old, so I had a bit of an advantage. However, that was all a very long time ago and I'm ashamed to say I can remember very little now, and nothing useful at all. All the Latin I know now is anatomical (Gluteus maximus, etc.). Sorry, Ph. I'm a bit of a waste of space.

 

[Phyrebrat]

@Kerrybuchanan don't say that! That's an awful thing to say.

You're a glorious use of space !!

pH

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Aww, and now I'm blushing.

 

[The Judge]

That was a bit of a shock...

I read the "but then" here

I survived into the 'O'-level group and did okay, but then I went to a strange little country primary school run by an elderly couple, and they taught the really old-fashioned Latin

as "but afterwards" so you were doing your Latin O-level at infant school!! I had to read it twice before clicking you meant "but that's because". I thought we had a child prodigy on our hands here!

We'll have to combine our professional Latin, Kerry. A story about a lawyer who moonlights as a pathologist, perhaps, or a vet who dabbles in the High Court.


EDIT: pH, I've just realised this is in Writing Resources. I can see why you put it here, but I'll shunt it across to GWD which is probably the better place.

 

[Dan Jones]

I'm using a reasonable amount of Latin in my WIP, and I'm using a few different resources. I think Google is fine in this instance.

In any case, your readers will most likely go to Google for a retranslation back into English (if it's not in the text anyway).

 

[Vertigo]

I'm using a reasonable amount of Latin in my WIP, and I'm using a few different resources. I think Google is fine in this instance.

In any case, your readers will most likely go to Google for a retranslation back into English (if it's not in the text anyway).

That last is a very valid point. If you don't provide a translation in the text then they will google it and currently that gives "Peace and quiet" which I don't think is quite the meaning you are after!

PS as I went to a Benedictine monastery I was 'obliged' to do Latin. I was truly dreadful at it but being a monastery they were not prepared to let me drop it until I had passed 'O' level which took me three attempts. Trying to read the Aeneid in Latin put me off it for life.

 

[Biskit]

Wah... I got O levels in Latin and Greek... ought to be easy... that's odd, don't seem to remember any of it. I can only conclude that whilst I have kept the science and math stuff in my head, the classical languages have all settled out. They must have one somewhere, so this obviously explain why my waistline is bigger than it used to be.

 

[mtzGr]

I'd probably use sto, stare, and keep it singular.

tace et sta

 

[TonyHarmsworth]

Hmm, I have used a very small amount of Russian in my novel which includes travelling to the ISS in a Soyuz. I was told to get rid of it, but I think it adds a bit of atmosphere considering the environment. Here's the usage:

"
The vista of Earth was stunning, the land green and brown, the clouds brilliant white and the sea was the most vibrant and azure blue. The whole sat in an ocean of jet-black. The curvature of the Earth was another phenomenon I was expecting, yet seeing it first hand was an awe-inspiring experience.

“Вы все в порядке, Ева ?”

I snapped out of my trance, Yuri, our commander, a bullish man with a shaved head, had asked if I was okay, “Yes. Да.”

“Вы стали очень тихо. Я волновался,” – he’d been worried about my silence.

“Я был ошеломлен в молчание представлением.” I told him it was the view which had stunned me into silence. He laughed.
"
That is it more or less although there is the odd Да elsewhere. What do you think? Should I junk it or is it okay? If it were French what would you think?

Thanks

 

[mtzGr]

Hmm, I have used a very small amount of Russian in my novel which includes travelling to the ISS in a Soyuz. I was told to get rid of it, but I think it adds a bit of atmosphere considering the environment. Here's the usage:

"
The vista of Earth was stunning, the land green and brown, the clouds brilliant white and the sea was the most vibrant and azure blue. The whole sat in an ocean of jet-black. The curvature of the Earth was another phenomenon I was expecting, yet seeing it first hand was an awe-inspiring experience.

“Вы все в порядке, Ева ?”

I snapped out of my trance, Yuri, our commander, a bullish man with a shaved head, had asked if I was okay, “Yes. Да.”

“Вы стали очень тихо. Я волновался,” – he’d been worried about my silence.

“Я был ошеломлен в молчание представлением.” I told him it was the view which had stunned me into silence. He laughed.
"
That is it more or less although there is the odd Да elsewhere. What do you think? Should I junk it or is it okay? If it were French what would you think?

Thanks

Get rid of it, just indicate he is speaking Russian.

 

[Abernovo]

Tony, I've said to others, the problem is what if it was translated into another language? Perhaps Russian, perhaps Mandarin, or any other.

I think it is different for Latin, in that it is effectively retired as an everyday language, but is relevant in a historical context as the language of particular social groups, different from the common tongue of the majority of people. It was also an international language amongst members of those social stratas. So, using it can show a division, excluding the regular person.

Russian is not the language of an elite. If anything, it is one of the major languages of space, especially as anyone presently going to the ISS is launched from the Cosmodrome and is required to learn rudimentary Russian for safety reasons, so it is not used to exclude. What are you gaining from using Russian (in Cyrillic, no less) in the story, when you then have to tell many readers what is being said? Could you not show the conversation more directly in your own language, and still make it obvious your characters are moving between languages? And, if it were ever translated, would it not be more likely to retain any context?

If you're using Russian to add to the 'atmosphere', you're indicating it as exotic. Russian is no more exotic than English. Its just a different language.

I'd say the same for French, although I'd probably have to work more to understand it.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Additionally this portion of my wip is set in the 1170s in a priory. The POV understands English and some Norman French but he is not a monk and has very weak grasp of Latin. It's important that he doesn't know what the Latin means.

Cyrillic alphabet is hard enough to pronounce for westerners not familiar with it. I'd certainly lose it unless you need to have its visual look as relevant to the story or character in some way.
pH