The naming of things

[The Big Peat]

As I sit here preparing for the polishing of manuscript two, one of the things I'm doing is nailing down the culture so I can get the names right this time around. I know I want the main culture to have a distinct celtic tinge to it. So, appropriately enough, I have a three-fold question

1) The use of real life names in secondary world cultures. Does this annoy people? Or is it just a sensible way to go about business? What about secondary world cultures that use a mix of real life names and made up names?

2) How far should I take using culture specific titles and how consistent should I be in doing so? Example - noble titles. In the book, there are kings, sort of-earls and sort of-lords. I can call them king, earl and lord and make clear the latter two aren't quite what people expect. Or I can call them king, ruirech and toisech, using Irish names for what the English title doesn't quite work. Or I can just go whole hog with Ri, Ruirech and Toisech, although that seems a bit unnecessary as king is a king. I'm sorta thinking use English where I don't have to explain anything and use Irish where its unclear, but I can see the inconsistency jarring some.

3) How comprehensible do people like their names? How much do difficult to pronounce names bother you? I say this because I'm cribbing a lot of Irish inspiration here and yeah, some of them are tongue manglers.

Its possible the answers to all three from everyone will be don't care, don't care and don't care. But I'm guessing there's some opinions/conventions I'm not aware of out there.

 

[Idealect]

What about secondary world cultures that use a mix of real life names and made up names?

Aerith and Bob - TV Tropes

I think it's fine if you want to, but that if you have grand names ones that are already hilariously mundane in real life, you probably have to explain it to the reader. Aerith and James- fine. Aerith and Bob- maybe needs a note to the reader about different naming conventions in different cultures. Something to reassure the reader that yes you know it's funny and incongruent, just like it would be in real life. Could be something simple like "this is aerith", "hi", "and this is bob" "bob?" "..bob". Anything really, just don't leave me thinking I'm in the hands of the kind of lunatic that can see a pair of names like that without taking note of I'm not-sure-what, but something.

 

[zmunkz]

First of all, congrats on the milestone! I wish I was at the polish stage...!

1) The use of real life names in secondary world cultures. Does this annoy people?

It depends how secondary the world is. If it is a alternate-history Earth sort of thing, the the occurrence of Earth-specific names and derivations won't be very jarring. If it is a totally different world with little overlap, then an unexpected name can definitely boot people out of a story. I had that complaint against my first novel... the MC had a particularly mundane name compared to the rest, and basically everyone complained about it, much to my surprise at the time. Makes more sense now that I step back and think about it. Anything that feels too out of place will break the suspension of disbelief and interrupt the immersion in the story, as the Aerith and Bob tvtrope mentions.

2) How far should I take using culture specific titles and how consistent should I be in doing so? ... I can call them king, ruirech and toisech ... I can just go whole hog with Ri, Ruirech and Toisech

While this relates to the the first question, there is also the issue of calling a rabbit a smeerp. I think you are right to say "king" is an obvious title worth reusing. Keeping the name familiar turns into one less step on the learning curve, and doesn't affect the sense of the world very much. If you wanted to modify maybe one of the titles, and in a way that references in-world backstory, that can definitely add something... but if you dropped a whole list of titles on me that I didn't know, I'd have no idea who outranked who and it would lead to a lot of guessing and uncertainty about aspects that probably just detract from the actual story.

3) How comprehensible do people like their names?

As long as I can pronounce it easily (not necessarily correctly) then I'm just fine. I really don't like a name that I see and have to skip over in my head... I want to be able to read it and remember it. Other than that, not too picky.

 

[Idealect]

In david gemmel's rigante series, I really liked how leaders were referred to with local terms. I couldn't tell you why, but for me it was a very nice touch.

And it was clear from context what kind of role that person occupied. Not the specific definition of the role, but I couldn't tell you the difference between a duke, an earl and a lord, either, so on that front it amounts to the same thing. And I don't know if king is even that clear a term anyway. My first thought for a definition would be that a king is the highest authority in the land, but then there is such a term as high king, so even that's not a universal definition. I don't know how easy it is to pull off, but in the rigante series my experience was that local terms added a lot to immersion without taking anything away.

 

[Dan Jones]

I agree with much of zmunkz, really. I'd simply add don't overthink it; things like names and titles shouldn't be the things your reader wants to stop and consider.

So, specifically:

1. I've no problem with real world names popping up in secondary worlds. You can always get around this by using slightly alternative spellings (i.e. David = Davyd, Thomas = Tomus), which is reasonably common trope but works for me.

2. King stay the king, as D'Angelo from The Wire says. As for the other two, I'd personally have no problem with the Irish terminology as long as it's explained (in a non infodumpy way). Most people will know toiseach but perhaps not roisech.

3. I've no problem with long words, but where pronunciation isn't obvious, it might slip me up. And no fantasy umlauts / apostrophes, please!

 

[RX-79G]

1. A good cheat for names is to have a long and weird proper name: i'Kaleniaka or Sarinfrino Ibinobar, and then call the Kal and Sar. The problem with foreign or alien names is that they are hard to follow, but diminutives, even unfamiliar ones, don't sound weird at all, because that is what we'd likely call Sarinfrino if we knew her.

2. King and earl are good for the same reason carrier and frigate are good. If you are going to use really unusual real words - like Irish names no one in the US has heard of, you might as well just use made up words. A better alternative would be to use familiar yet "exotic" ranks like Oman or Raj. Otherwise, there are words that sound like what they mean - Prime, Upper, Lower, Landholder, etc. Again, I think the biggest issue are words that aren't memorable enough to the reader that the relative ranks would be forgotten or confused, making reading a chore.

3. Long or hard to read names are fine, because I honestly read Cheraradine Xaclewe as Che-----ine Xac----e, without ever putting the energy into trying to pronounce the words out loud or being able to spell them. So I don't think they create a burden unless you have several alien names that look similar, because the reader isn't hearing these names in their heads, just looking for the right shapes.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Only use Irish if you don't care that no one can either pronounce it or know what it means

 

[HareBrain]

It took me years to accept High Lord Kevin from the Thomas Covenant books. (And Lord Trevor.)

I'm cribbing a lot of Irish inspiration here and yeah, some of them are tongue manglers

Maybe you could hide the Irish inspiration a bit, and make them less tongue-mangling, by spelling them more phonetically? And then maybe think about going into hiding.

 

[Dan Jones]

I think Kev and Trev must have particularly working class Lords and High Lords.

 

[The Big Peat]

Thanks all.

I'd simply add don't overthink it; things like names and titles shouldn't be the things your reader wants to stop and consider.

Well that's exactly it. If my reader stops to think about the names, 9 times out of 10 I've stuffed up. (The 10th time they'll realise I'm trying to be too clever for my own good).

The question is how far I can go to either side before the names don't work because they're too jarring in terms of ordinariness/too jarring in terms of strangeness and readers have that fatal pause. I'm going to steer well clear of Aerith and Bob I think - Aerith and Connor is as close as I'd get.

Think I'll take the approach of using foreign language terms for everything that doesn't translate precisely and maybe playing around with the spellings to not make it a complete rip-off/keep things reasonably pronounceable. Also happily shows cultural drift as well. Bit more work but probably worth it.

Only use Irish if you don't care that no one can either pronounce it or know what it means

Well if no one knows what it means, at least it remains suitably alien

 

[Biskit]

If you're going for celtic-ish names, pronounciation is going to be problematic for English readers. I struggle with Irish, and can scrape by with Welsh, but if you don't know where it's from, it gets even trickier.

My favourite example is my sister's name - Sian, pronounced approximately Shaan. If you didn't know it was Welsh, there are all sorts of variations.

 

[Brian G Turner]

My pet peeve is when authors start putting apostrophes and accents on names, for no other reason than to designate them as being a bit Celtic Irish.

However, Irish names - like pretty much all about the globe - have Anglicised forms for the English language.

Hence Cú Chulainn becomes Cuhullin - no need for the apostrophe at all.

IMO, accents, apostrophes, umlauts, etc, have no place in English.

 

[Ursa major]

umlauts

But a diaeresis is fine (as found in Zoë, Chloë, Brontë and naïve).

 

[Abernovo]

Only use Irish if you don't care that no one can either pronounce it or know what it means

Erm...

Think I'll take the approach of using foreign language terms for everything that doesn't translate precisely and maybe playing around with the spellings to not make it a complete rip-off/keep things reasonably pronounceable.

Foreign? Depends upon who's reading it, surely?

Well if no one knows what it means, at least it remains suitably alien

Ah, that's it! *flounces off and sulks*

It's been a while since I went to school with a Gaelic unit (been a while since I went to school), but the stories were the same as in Ireland, and the spellings were only slightly different.

All said in fun, by the way.

IMO, accents, apostrophes, umlauts, etc, have no place in English.

Apostrophes do have a place in English. They're used to display glottal stops, in words and in names. English is an ever-changing language. Plus, you're wrong: café (drank in some), épée (fenced with one), naïveté (seen some displayed on occasion). I know they all come from French originally, but so did half your language (what did the Normans ever do for us?) and, if you can eat saag aloo, with chicken tikka and pilau rice, then you can have a cup of chai in a French-sounding coffee house. And listen to Motörhead.

 

[scholar-in-distress]

Reading through all the replies in this thread (and in others as well) was both daunting and inspiring. But here I am, with evem more questions than answers. So, I would like to ask if, by any chance, you could help me with a similar problem. I conduct an academic study on proper names of places (toponyms), and how they let us imagine the places they refer to. So far, I still have some room for fantasy/RPG fans, so if any of you would be willing to help... That would mean a lot to me

The study is in google forms, but to save you from drudgery, it was split into two parts, you are invited to take part in both

If you wish to be assigned randomly, go here: Proper names and the spells they cast

If you wish go directly to either part, go here: Proper names and the spells they cast or here: Proper names and the spells they cast

It is really a big deal for me, so all the help I can get is very much appreciated!

 

[DLCroix]

Hi, well this is a method of mine anyway, but generally speaking I never start a project unless I have a file with at least four or five pages full of names. Also, since I use a lot of image folders, suppose I have a photo that starts with a number, let's say "230" for the example, "two hundred thirty" is simple association of ideas, but weeding, playing with the letters, often changing them from place in the style of anagrams or simply observing them you immediately get a "Wohun" (Hung Wo, if he has an oriental cousin), a "Dred" and if I remove the t from therty I have a "Hirty" and another from the two eliminated t which can even be a simple "Mr. Double T" or a Tee-tee. Combinatorial, simple random combinatorial. It is like meeting people, if today is the first of September I can start looking for images that have either the number 19 or the result of the sum, that is, a 10. I never know what I am going to find, although sometimes a certain instinct says me that a grandfather seems to me to have the face of being called Henry or something like that.

2. To all this, wasn't that of the Highlander yours, something like the great lord of the lands? You could use a similar like a Grandlord or Grandsire or a Fatherlord or Grandmaster.

3. I was originally a guitarist, so when writing songs I had a tendency for the phrases to have a rhythm, it's a matter of seeing how I write this. I also remember Shakespeare in Love, a scene where a colleague praises Shakespeare for the rhythm of the names of his characters. Or Bruce Willis when he asks Mila Jovovich if she has a short name in The Fifth Element. So I guess is better keep that in mind.

 

[Dragonlady]

I'm not usually too bothered by pronouncability if a story is taking elements from an authentic culture if that makes sense, eg they are, or are based on, real Irish, or African, or Chinese names, so long as they don't all look the same. I currently have a secondary world protagonist called Joseph - not sure if i need to change it as it's got such strong cultural significance, but it's sort of stuck now. It is hard to come up with good fantasy names and to strike a balance.