What is the Definition of Fencing?

[Lafayette]

My editor friend has brought something to my attention that I have been taking for granted and that is sword fighting and fencing.

My friend believes fencing is where the fencers wear padding, headgear, and are using foils. I always thought that employing any kind of a sword is considered fencing. In other words, I thought fencing was sword fighting and sword fighting was fencing.

Have I been wrong in my assumption?

I need to know for in my novel (a work in progress) my characters don't use foils they use swords like in Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, but when they talk about sword fighting they use the term fencing.

If I'm going to take liberties with terminology in my novel I want and need to know what they are.

Any information is welcomed.

 

[Victoria Silverwolf]

Just looking at on-line dictionaries "fencing" does seem to imply sport rather than combat. Somebody training at the skill of combat with a sword might be said to be learning "fencing," it seems, but it appears to be unlikely to call actual combat by that term. "Swordsmanship" might be a better term for the skill in general, "swordplay" for the combat.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm given the impression that "fencing" means a form of non-lethal but stylised swordplay. So it's something friends and honourable opponents might use to practice moves and hone their skills, but not a word used to describe a fight to the death. Padding would only be mandatory in the later sport version.

 

[The Judge]

Yep, I'd agree. Use "fencing" only when they are practising techniques, exercising and the like -- places to learn were known as fencing schools -- but not when it's a real fight.


Have you done any research into swords and swordsmanship, by the way? As far as I'm aware "foil" is the term for a buttoned weapon used in sport or practice, so your comment that your characters "don't use foils" struck me as strange to say the least, and your reference to the Errol Flynn "Robin Hood" worries me slightly, to be honest, since that would never win any prizes for historical accuracy. It's a long time since I've seen the film, but from memory I thought he had something like a rapier -- long, thin and fast. But they only evolved out of courtly/dress weapons in the mid to late C15th and really were only widespread in the C16th, so if this is for your novel set in the equivalent of C14th France, it's not the right weapon for your characters. And the design of swords affects the way they are used -- you don't usually cut with a rapier, for instance, as it's a thrusting weapon. It might be worth your spending a bit of time researching the area, to check what kinds of weapons your characters most likely possessed based on the period in which they lived and, of course, their wealth and status.


This isn't really an SFF matter though, so I'll move it over to GWD as it concerns your WIP.

EDIT: just realised got my centuries mixed up, as I was going to write 1500s and 1600s for the rapiers then changed it to CXth without changing the numbers. So rapiers developed in the mid to late 1500s, ie C16th, and only become widespread in the 1600s ie C17th.

 

[Venusian Broon]

After a quick look in my dictionary, just to confirm again what everyone above has stated that fencing just relates to the practice, art or sport of sport of fighting with swords etc...

However it may be that you could fence with a sword with deadly intent, as one of the definitions of that word is: to fight using swords or foils.

 

[Abernovo]

Fencing today is a sport. But it came from classical and historical fencing, which was performed both as competition, and as preparation and training in the art of sword fighting, especially for the duel. It was still based upon light swords, such as rapiers, but they evolved from earlier swords, such as ******* swords and arming swords. In turn, during the Middle Ages, training was given in how to fight, but with heavier weapons, and different stances.

I think @Juliana is the one to ask about this, as she does Historical European Martial Arts.

Oh, and never think fencing is safe. People have been killed (very rarely in recent years) when things go wrong. I fenced a long time ago, in foil and épée, and trained in quarterstaff and staves (part of HEMA). Any weapon of that kind, however sanitised, is potentially deadly. It only looks stylised because the movements are repeated and set. In the past, that would be building muscle memory for use outside the salle or training compound.

Anyway, fencing is either sport, or training, but it is not fighting or duelling (although the period looking for openings may sometimes be referred to as fencing, as it resembles the training). And, Errol Flynn, who was in some classic films is not a good role model (in so many ways!). In The Adventures of Robin Hood, for instance, he is shown with what is basically a side sword, or spada da lato, which is a development between the mediaeval arming sword and the rapier - a little later than the 12th Century he's supposed to be swanning about in. Still a good film. Hope some of that helps.

 

[Juliana]

I think @Juliana is the one to ask about this, as she does Historical European Martial Arts.

(Where she is still very much a beginner who hasn't even tested for Novice rank yet... )

I practice what's known as 'historical fencing', which means we use longswords based on historical weaponry instead of the lighter foils, épées and sabres used in modern fencing. We do use masks and gloves for sparring practice (though not for drills). And for actual sparring, you need fully padded gear (slightly heavier in padding than modern fencing protection because the swords are heavier).

I actually started lessons because of book research! There's a lot around on the internet about the history of swords used in battle moving to swords used mainly in duels or for sport around the 15/1600s - I suggest looking up HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) or longsword as search terms.

 

[Biskit]

Never played with this myself, but the Biskitetta was into fencing when we met, so I picked up a few technical details. 'Fencing' is ancient and, so far as I know, comes from the 'Masters of Defence' or 'Masters of Fencing'. There is a very basic wiki article on this (Masters of Defence - Wikipedia) which has lots of references at the bottom.

 

[tinkerdan]

I would favor the notion of fencing being a sport.
The terms of swordplay and swordsmanship may easily apply to the sport but I don't believe that other areas where you would see these two words would include the use of fencing.

It might be interesting to you to visit this site and among other things see the similarity between the rules of fencing and those of dueling.

Duels With the Sword

There are other articles on the site that might prove helpful.

I would tend to see the use of fencing in reference to street fight or duel or duel via street fight to be tongue-and-cheek.

"Why yes I do fence." He nodded in a curt bow and swept his hand outward. "That gentleman across the room, with the sling and bandages, is one of my fencing partners."

 

[Lafayette]

Thank you all for the information, comments, and for setting me straight.

As far as I can tell from watching the clip of Robin Hood (Errol Flynn) and Sir Guy of Gisbourne (Basil Rathbone) they are using broadswords which is a medieval weapon and not a 14th century weapon.

My story takes place in another dimension with pseudo French character in a pseudo 14th century which may mean I will have use rapiers (which I'm not fond of) or probably explain the anachorism of a broadsword.

 

[The Judge]

As far as I can tell from watching the clip of Robin Hood (Errol Flynn) and Sir Guy of Gisbourne (Basil Rathbone) they are using broadswords which is a medieval weapon and not a 14th century weapon.

Are you sure? I recall a lot of dashing about and being generally athletic in the films, which isn't how broadswords are generally wielded. I really think Abernovo is correct on this one as to the type of sword used. Anyway, the broadsword was still around in the C14th, which, of course, is itself well in the middle of the Middle Ages and therefore "medieval" weapons are the right ones.

My story takes place in another dimension with pseudo French character in a pseudo 14th century which may mean I will have use rapiers (which I'm not fond of) or probably explain the anachorism of a broadsword.

NO! As I said above the rapier is NOT a C14th weapon, it developed much later. A rapier would be anachronistic in the 1300s.

 

[Venusian Broon]

using broadswords which is a medieval weapon and not a 14th century weapon.

This made my pedantic historian inside me raise an eyebrow . As TJ states a 14th century weapon is by definition a medieval one (One might argue it is a Late Middle Age weapon rather than a High Middle Age weapon - but exactly when "high" and "late" extend to are probably a little fluid).

Medieval period goes to roughly 1500 (The date 1485 came to mind first but that is because I've been brought up in the UK. However there are a bunch of events +/- 25 years of that time that you can pick ).

 

[Toby Frost]

The combination of rapiers, action in (pseudo) France and complex/formalised music makes me think of the Three Musketeers. I suppose you're not going to mention what time it's based upon in the text of the novel, so would it be more useful to look at the 17th century instead of the 14th?

 

[tinkerdan]

I concur with previous posts if you need historic accuracy
1300's is 14th century
1400's is 15th century
1500's is 16th century
So rapier showed up in 1500's so in the 16th century

if you want a single-handed type of sword for that time try
Arming sword (or Knightly sword in modern terminology)

 

[Brian G Turner]

broadswords which is a medieval weapon and not a 14th century weapon.

The term "broadsword" just mean it's not a rapier. Again, post-mediaeval terminology really.

I'd recommend against using films to provide any form of historical facts, and instead try a few YouTubers - lindybeige, metatron, schola gladiatoria, skallagrim, and shadiversity all come to mind as presenting useful videos on mediaeval arms and related topics.

 

[Martin Gill]

Also bare in mind that the evolution of the sword is tightly linked to the evolution of armour, and of firearms. As is the use of a shield. As armour became better, shields became less needed, so medieval men at arms ditched shields and went for 2 handed can opening weapons. As firearms improved, armour became less useful, so swords became lighter. Broadly. There's a lot of subtlety to this. So if you are in a fantasy land with no guns, then things could evolve differently. By the 1400s you have the rise of tech Talhoffers and the like formalising the art of combat in their manuals and schools. They were largely worried about "longswords" that most people think of "******* swords".. hand and a halfers. Then come the renaissance masters who split into the Italians, who favoured style and panache, and George Silver, who was late 1500s who thought rappers were the tools of a fop and favoured whacking people hard and fast with a shorter, heavier sword.

We don't know loads about pre 1400s techniques because not much was written down. But it's reasonable to assume there was a lot of technique passed down. It's surprising how dirty and sophisticated you can get with an axe and a 3 foot round Viking shield if you know what you are up to

 

[Lafayette]

Ooh boy. Talk about misunderstanding.

I wasn't using the Robin Hood movie for historical accuracy. Here is what I was doing. I am envisioning my characters using the type of sword that is used in the Robin Hood movie.

I didn't know what type of sword it is so I went to google and clicked on images and found it or something very similar, but didn't see the name. Then I deemed from the movie that it was medieval England. So I typed in google to see what type of weapons were used then. I then went to this site: Types of Swords. I went down and read the list of weapons and found one that seem to fit the description then went back to google and typed in broadsword and clicked on images and found this:

Broadsword - Google Search.

It looks like the same sword in the movie.

Here to refresh your memories of the movie is the link.

"Are you sure? I recall a lot of dashing about and being generally athletic in the films, which isn't how broadswords are generally wielded." The Judge

This morning I went to youtube and watched a critique on the scene in question and it more or less (mostly more) agreed with you.

Also in my research I investigated great sword swords, long swords, and rapiers via google and youtube.

I made the mistake of assuming that the 14th century was the renaissance age. According to Wikipedia the European renaissance went from the 14th to the 17th century. Am I missing something here?

I am trying to keep some realism in my novel, but right now reality is playing havoc with it. Any suggestions on realistic swashbuckling?

 

[tinkerdan]

not sure about the accuracy of all of the list::

Category:Medieval European swords - Wikipedia
Category:Renaissance-era swords - Wikipedia

::but it should be helpful and even put a spin on the timeline in which some of them are introduced.

As with what has been said much devolves to the armor of the time and how that rendered certain swords less than helpful and moved from hack and slash to thrusting.

14th and 15th centuries (c. 1301–1500). The Late Middle Ages
Renaissance a period in European history, from the 14th to the 17th century

 

[Brian G Turner]

According to Wikipedia the European renaissance went from the 14th to the 17th century. Am I missing something here?

Be very careful using Wikipedia as a research tool. It can be good for general overviews but a stinker with details.

As for the Renaissance - it occurred in different countries at different times. My impression is that it began in Italy during the 15th century at least partly because the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks. That sent a flood of Greek refugees to their Italian allies, especially Genoa and Venice - along with all their Greek texts and learning (possibly Muslim ones, too). Which in turn caused a resurgence of interest in classical history and thought.

But the Renaissance didn't happen overnight - it was a process that rippled out from Italy, influencing different countries at different times. AFAIK England (Britain) is not considered to have experienced the Renaissance until around the 1500's or 1600's, depending on which historian you talk to.

Anyway, that's just my impression - hope it helps a bit.

 

[tinkerdan]

Clearly there might be some dispute about when the Renaissance was; however you should keep in mind that even when stating that the Renaissance overlaps the Late Middle ages and might begin as early as the 14th century.

It would still be an error to put rapier's in the picture as early as the 14th century because they didn't show up until the 16th century and were not widely used even then.