Books on writing -- advice needed

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richard sanchez

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Hi And thanks for reading this post.
I have sent off a few pieces of work to agents , and have been universally rejected by all. I have never done a creative writing course but have done a lot of reading of diy books on creative writing. This is what i have read:
Writing Well by William Zinsser,
On writing Stephen King,
Stein on writing by Sol stein
Elements of Fiction Writing - Scene & Structure - Jack Bickham
Revision & Self-Editing James Scott Bell
Art of Plotting - Linda J Cowgill
Elements of Fiction Writing - Conflict & Suspense - James Scott Bell
Save the Cat - Blake Snyder
Writing Popular Fiction - Koontz Dean

Took me about 6 months to go through all of this and armed with all this knowledge i ventured forth.
Everytime the phone rang i jumped because i knew it was the agent desperate to contact me and offer me a deal before anyone else could swoop in.
In my mind i saw the publishers helicopter landing in my front garden and the publisher racing out with contract in hand.

But unfortunatly when i woke up all i got was rejection emails.

1. Is it possible to get published with nothing more than diy books and a good grasp of the english language, or can agents spot a phoney very easily.

2. Are there any other books i should be reading, have i been reading all the wrong books in the first place.

3. Is there anyone i can show my work to, i don't want to pay £50 an hour, someone who is good with young adult material, is there anyone you know with reccomendations and experience.

Many thanks.
 
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Are you reading books in the genre in which you write? Because if you're not, that's what would make you the phony, not a lack of advanced degrees.
 
Stay here. You'll learn more than any book can teach you. Read loads. Write loads.

Did you just send a first draft? Was it the best it could possibly be? But anyway, welcome to the place where you will learn the easy, the ugly, the hard and the strange world of the writer.
 
1) Personally, I think learning to write from how-to books is like learning to paint by looking at other paintings. You can learn a lot, but you still need to practice. I found that it was easy to understand what I shouldn't be doing, but much harder to notice when I was getting things wrong in my own work. I'm not sure about being a phoney as such, just under-experienced (assuming that you're approaching the right people in the right way, etc).

2) I don't know all of those books, but I've seen most of them recommended on this forum at some point. There's a book called Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer that gets good reviews, too. It didn't work for me but a lot of people like it.

3) When you hit 30 posts there's a critiques section of this forum you could try. It's also worth seeing if there is a writing group near you. Joining a good one near me hugely improved my writing.
 
Just to bounce off Toby's point 1) - I agree, and it's the same for me. There's a big difference between 'knowing' something I've read in a book, and actually being able to apply the lessons and truly understand it. So in my case, I really need to just chose one lesson at a time, and write a draft where I work on just that one thing. Then the next draft, another lesson/concept. And so on until I've worked my way through the (how-to) book. In that way, they're more like a workbook then just a one-off read.

So I guess my advice is stick with the books you've got, but go over them again and again while you're applying the lessons to your WIP.
 
It's easy to read books on writing - it's a lot harder to apply what you've learned without third party prompting. I've got quite a few of those you mentioned, but except for Save the Cat am not sure I'd rate a number of others highly. Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer is one I always recommend because he pretty much covers everything.

However, as above, it's very important to get third-party comments. Once you get 30 posts you'd be able to put something up in the Critiques section here. Your reading so far should be especially useful because you're more likely to understand any criticisms that are actually raised, and therefore better understand how to correct them.

Another pointer, though, is that it's very hard to get representation by agents. There's a general errant view put about that agents know and understand books, and can therefore spot a bestseller a mile off. Really, though, most agents work on the basis of personal taste, and most really do seem to know little or nothing about the technicalities of writing. This is why submission to many agents is important when seeking a traditional contract. However, as I've posted elsewhere on the forums, publishers are not taking so many debut SF/F writers on at the moment, making everything especially hard.

In the meantime, welcome to the chrons forums. :)
 
There are others here far more knowledgeable about the business side of publishing, but what I learned about writing when trying to write was,

1) Read widely. The how-to books can help put you in a mind-set to write, but what you write well depends on what you know, and that includes not only what you know about the type of writing you're attempting (whether non-fiction or fiction, and if fiction, what kind of fiction, and if a certain sub-genre, what you know about the history of that) but also how to read a story: This may be my idiosyncrasy, but I like to read reviews and criticism of works because it gives me insight into what others see when they see a story I'm familiar with. Sometimes they notice things I don't -- say a critic notices a recurring motif, the color red appearing whenever something bad is about to happen, and maybe I didn't notice that, too caught up in events to note the stuff working on me subtly as a reader.

2) Critique the work of others and try to be kind about it. This pays 2 dividends: 1] When you see what's dicey in the work of others, you start noticing it in your own work; 2] The kindness part enlists other writers to read your work and their comments can be helpful.

3) Some critiques you receive are less useful for what they say than for what they imply. Occasionally someone will be spot on with what they say, but more often they are vaguely pointing in the general direction of something that sort of didn't really work for them ... So, mainly you will need to translate a bit. For instance, I've had comments that amounted to hand-waving toward a section of a story, but with nothing for me to pin-point, but in rereading and tinkering, the story got stronger.


Good luck. I've browsed the critiques here and I think, if you stick around, you'll find some help.


Randy M.
 
Here's a bit of what I did.
When I came here to this forum I read as many of the posts in the Critique area as I could and got a feel for how people were approaching critique of other peoples work.
Then I participated in the critiques and tried to be as helpful as I could.

Periodically I would go back to my work and apply what I was learning.

When I reached the point where I could see a lot of room for improvement in what I already had written, I knew I was getting somewhere.

It's good that you got rejections, because there is no obligation for them to reply.
The problem is that often it's just a form rejection with no real help as to what you might work on other than to keep writing.
If they actually took time to make suggestions that would suggest that they really saw something there and that would always be encouraging, however honestly there isn't enough time in their day and unless the work is exceptional that probably wouldn't be the case.

However once you have the requisite number of post here you can start to get some opinions from those who contribute here.

That coupled with the desire to improve will be a lot of help.
However continue to keep writing because that's the ultimate key here.

Also check out the toolbox thread
The Toolbox
If you can read the whole thread.
or better yet...
If you can; read the whole thread.
 
Hi Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

I have ordered wonderbook, will go through it at the earliest opportunity.

I got the contact details for the agents from the writers and artists yearbook, is that a good source or should i be looking elsewhere.

I don't have the required number of posts to put a piece up for critique, is there anyone on this forum i could email a few pages to. Or would the adminstrators object to me putting something here.

Many thanks.
 
richard sanchez said:
I don't have the required number of posts to put a piece up for critique, is there anyone on this forum i could email a few pages to. Or would the adminstrators object to me putting something here.
Click to expand...

Yes we would. :)

You can get the required number of posts pretty easily by just wandering around and joining in discussions that interest you. (Note that it's frowned upon to pop one-liners in randomly in an attempt to boost your post count -- the required post count is designed to get you involved in the community, let us get to know you and vice versa.) The only places where posts don't count are the Lounges, Playrooms, and places like that where it's just silly stuff and games. But we have discussions on books, and on writing, and on TV and movies -- surely something appeals to you in all of that. It's also helpful (and already recommended above) to go into Critiques and see what you can find to add to other people's requests -- with all of those writing books under your belt, you no doubt have something useful to say to people who are looking for critiques. In no time at all, you'll find you have the required posts and can put something up yourself.
 
Okay, i'm not sure of the rules around here, thought i'd ask

What do you think of the artists and writers yearbook, or should i be looking elsewhere for agents.

Also do you think me reading all of these books was the right way to go, or have i done it all wrong because your opinion of diy books does not appear to be too positive. Should i just go away and do a creative writing course. Is there anything positive to be gained or should i read further books and participate in this website instead. I mean i see the creative writing course as an academic achievement, but how would that compare against real life experience.
 
It's hard to say whether you should be looking for an agent, or doing a writing course, until we see what you're writing, and that only comes with hanging around here and participating. Give us a shot -- we don't bite. :)
 
Stop subbing! Really. You can find agents in a while (and yes, there are other places to find them beyond the handbook).

You don't get a second chance with this. You can't sub the same book again. All you are doing at the moment is wasting your one shot.

Get to 30 posts. It's not hard - go into critiques and do 30 pieces. Or answer threads elsewhere. Or ask questions like you have here. By then you'll have a feel for the place. Once you get there we can have a look and see if you have some howlers in your work.

If you are getting only form responses or no responses it is likely there is something not quite 'there' yet with your work. This might be grammar, or pace, or filter words, or cliches, or storytelling or info dumping. Writing is an amalgam of so many things.

But, for now, stop subbing. We've all done it - subbed too soon - and all regretted it. Stop looking for where to find agents and scatter-gunning it. When we've all assured you of your genius then ask the question again and we'll help with how to find agents - and how to write queries and everything else.

But for now - stop. A week or so's waiting won't hurt anyone.
 
I wouldn't call you as having done it backwards: because there really isn't an absolute right way to do everything in this business. But I would advise getting pages of prose down before during and all around all of the checking on various methods of diy writing books and theory.

Also work on locking down grammar spelling and sentence structure, because a happy editor is one that doesn't have to teach you those three; only remind you now and then when you take too much license.

And you really do need editing.

I didn't notice on your list.
Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Reni Browne and Dave King.

Seriously though spend some time here and in the critique section and then put something out there for others to look at and sit back and consider some of the advice.
 
Don't make the mistake of thinking that agents know how to write...if they did, they'd likely be writing themselves.
Rather, some of them have learned, over the years, what things (they think) editors/publishers will buy -- sometimes they're right.
And remember that editors/publishers -- even if they bought your book! -- did not necessarily buy it because it was a good book...for that matter, did not necessarily know if it was a good book, or not.
A great deal of what goes on in the field of writing-and-publishing is based almost entirely on personal superstitions/foibles...it may be that the greatest book ever written lies in some trash can somewhere because no one who saw it recognized that it was good.

But "good" does not necessarily mean "salable." Do you want to write good books, or do you want to write books that will sell? Those are not necessarily the same thing.

The Dusty Zebra gave you a good piece of advice: know what you're trying to write about. Another way to understand that idea might be this: sit down and ask yourself what kind of book you would want to read. Then write that book.
In other words (again!): try to understand who you're writing for.

I would suggest that you cease trying to find an agent for a while. No good agent is going to take you on until you have a track record. And none of them are likely to look at an unsolicited ms. unless they have spare time (which usually means that they're not doing much business...).

Sit down by yourself and write. Do it every day. And when you quit for the day, put your work down and go away. Don't look at it until you come back to write the next day; then see how it reads to you.
In other words: don't just write on and on and on -- stop to read and to think about how it feels, now and again...
 
No one -- NO ONE! -- is infallible on the subject of what makes for good writing. Literary history is full of the stories about great writers and great editors who had vehement disagreements about whether a story was good, or not!
 
I don't have anything to add to the advice you've already received, save to confirm that I think you're better off joining in conversations here about writing and learning in company than reading how-to books in isolation.

However, since this is very much a writing matter, rather than a reading one, I will move this over to General Writing Discussion where we keep such threads, and I'll tweak the title so it's more apparent what it's about.
 
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