How long until classic?

Danny McG

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I've been looking through some of this forum's threads and am curious as to how a SFF book or series gets 'classic' status.

Is it just when it was first published? - bearing in mind there are ones as recent as the Hyperion cantos in here.

Or is it when fads decide "Yep, that's a classic sure enough" ?

Or does a book/series have to start appearing in publishers Classic collections?
 
Danny, here's my take.

"Classic" status is far too readily assigned. To prevent the word from becoming little more than a synonym for "personal favorite" or "popular favorite," I suggest something like this: that the longer a literary type has been around, the more time must pass before we can speak of a specimen of it as "classic."

So, for example, the tragic drama has been around for a very long time (Sophocles, etc.). It would be premature to say that Death of a Salesman is a classic tragedy, but not that Hamlet is. Death of a Salesman has been around long enough and won sufficient acclaim and critical esteem as to have some claim to being a "modern classic."

The novel is often dated to Don Quixote. If so, it would be far too soon to say that Beloved is a classic novel. I would hesitate to say that anything more recent than, say, Ulysses is a classic novel.

Science fiction as we know it is often dated to Verne and then to Wells. I don't think you would get a lot of argument against that. That gives us a period of about 125 years or a bit more for the sf novel. If so, I'd allow something as recent as A Canticle for Leibowitz to be labeled a classic science fiction novel, or maybe even something as recent as The Left Hand of Darkness from around 1970. But I would decline to say anything much more recent than that should be called a "classic science fiction novel."

A classic needs to have been around long enough to have proven its appeal and value to multiple generations and across varying societies, I would think. This takes time. A classic has shown itself, across time, to have this kind of broad and deep appeal and worth.

Similarly for the genre of modern fantasy fiction. I might go as far as for the beginning point as Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner and Christabel,etc. I can hardly imagine Lord Dunsany's tales without these, etc. So, if this is acceptable, The Lord of the Rings is classic fantasy. I would actually hesitate to say that The Silmarillion (1977) had been around long enough, but maybe that's just my mood.

So that's my take. I'm annoyed when people use the word carelessly. This has the effect of promoting what we already have, a gross and even decadent inflating of the value of our recent favorites and a neglect or unfair judging of much earlier work.
 
I'm confused about the difference between a "modern classic" and a regular "classic." For me a classic has to be considered fundamental for understanding the genre well, and have been widely read/performed for more than one generation. So to use Extollager's example, I would consider "Death of a Salesman" a classic. In the S.F. category I would include such works as Gateway, Ender's Game, Dune, The Foundation Trilogy as Classics. Whereas books like the Hunger Games might become classics but it's too soon to tell.
 
Does a book need to be liked or admired to be a classic? Is Mein Kampf a classic? I ask because it seems whether we like it or not, a "classic" is a Gordian's Knot of popularity and age, its literary significance to be determined by those who, forever what reason, admire it.
 
All valid points so far, in Fantasy then the ultimate classic would be LOTR but it's tricky to come up with an 'also a classic' fantasy to accompany it. Too dependant on the individual readers personal taste. (Not that I advocate running around tasting readers, not a cannibal!)
 
Classic to some things have to be older than 20 years. They also tend to have to be remembered or enjoyed throughout the ages although that might lead to a misunderstanding with the term timeless classic.

However there is such a thing as cult classic which might have considerably shorter fermentation period.

I think as far as classic fantasy; that if you dig a bit you might name a few.
Lewis Carrol Alice in wonderland
L.Frank Baum Wizard of Oz
C.S Lewis Narnia series
to name a few

If you wanted to go strictly with Classic High Fantasy then LOTR might be the only one I would recall.

Yet for me
The Odyssey and Iliad
Gilgamesh
Beowulf
might qualify.
However I take license since they are usually lumped with Classic Literature.
 
A key element in whether a work deserves to be considered a classic is this:

Has it permitted, invited, and rewarded good reading, by readers of multiple generations?

For an extended, lively, and rewarding discussion of what "good reading" is, I refer you to a very fine short book, An Experiment in Criticism by C. S. Lewis.

But, very briefly: Good reading is attentive reading. The reader is attentive to the words, imagery, possible irony, etc. Bad reading might be marked by reader attention that turns from what the words say to self-pleasing daydreams for which the words are just nudges. In good reading, the reader gains pleasure and perhaps insight from what is there in the book, story, etc.

A classic elicits good reading from readers of multiple generations and varying social contexts. Shakespeare's famous plays are classics although (I believe) they are often subjected to bad reading. Readers who make the effort to understand the plays on their own terms will find their attention rewarded. (It appears to me that many modern productions of Shakespeare foist the obsessions of directors etc. on the plays, getting between the audience and the text, etc.)

Related to this "good reading" criterion is this: Classic works are indispensable. Each may give us something we can't get elsewhere. If you haven't read and digested Hamlet, you cannot get that flavor somewhere else, except perhaps incidentally or mixed with other flavors. If Blake's Songs of Innocence and of Experience disappeared, nothing else would make the loss bearable. The same, I suppose, would be true of other classic works. Conversely, I don't suppose that popular thrillers are indispensable. You can get pretty much the same thing from Book X as from Book Y.
 
This thread was started in the Classic SF and Fantasy area, and I went an reflected on the broader topic of classic literature, for what those remarks might be worth. But I'd think that there's real overlap between classic literature and classic sf & fantasy. Maybe we could discuss that.

In the meantime (?), here are two further thoughts...

1.Do we think that the status of a science fiction work as "prophetic" or not factors into whether it's "classic"? If Novel X, published in 1930, seems to have foreshadowed circumstances in our time, does that enhance the case for Novel X as "a science fiction classic"?

2.Do we think that the status of a science fiction or fantasy work as "classic" is secured if it seems to have promoted the development of a subgenre? Imagine a hypothetical work of science fiction that has manifest literary faults, is for most people just a chore to read, etc., etc., but that did apparently launch some certain subgenre. I haven't read Capek's R. U. R. but maybe that would qualify -- is it a work that in general is pretty bad but that does seem to have launched the robot genre?
 
Even though I agree with this::
Related to this "good reading" criterion is this: Classic works are indispensable. Each may give us something we can't get elsewhere. If you haven't read and digested Hamlet, you cannot get that flavor somewhere else, except perhaps incidentally or mixed with other flavors. If Blake's Songs of Innocence and of Experience disappeared, nothing else would make the loss bearable. The same, I suppose, would be true of other classic works. Conversely, I don't suppose that popular thrillers are indispensable. You can get pretty much the same thing from Book X as from Book Y
.
It begins to sound pretentious where it should strive more for cautionary. There are alarmingly increasing numbers of people who never even taste the flavor so it's not going to make a difference to them whether it disappears or not. The same goes for a multitude of other classics. You can only force feed students with so much. I'm deeply afraid that that definition of classic will doom those classics to becoming something akin to cult classics when the number dwindle down to a specific and smaller segment of society.

As soon as something is deemed indispensable it becomes just as easily disposed of.
 
It's not a long read.
http://preprints.readingroo.ms/RUR/rur.pdf
2.Do we think that the status of a science fiction or fantasy work as "classic" is secured if it seems to have promoted the development of a subgenre? Imagine a hypothetical work of science fiction that has manifest literary faults, is for most people just a chore to read, etc., etc., but that did apparently launch some certain subgenre. I haven't read Capek's R. U. R. but maybe that would qualify -- is it a work that in general is pretty bad but that does seem to have launched the robot genre?
However the translation for the language may not do it justice. I can't read the original so I'm dependent on the translator. It can be a particularly difficult language to translate to English.
 
War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy

Maybe so Baylor my friend. However twice in my life I've really tried to get through WAP and both times failed miserably. Bogged down in lots of inconsequential details that led nowhere.
The second time I bought a brand new edition of it (late eighties) solely because it came with a big fold out chart showing who was who and their relevance.
This helped me get a bit further but I went into 'page blindedness' where I was reading the same page for a long time but couldn't absorb enough details to make sense of it.
Gave it to a charity shop and resolved not to have a third attempt
 
Maybe so Baylor my friend. However twice in my life I've really tried to get through WAP and both times failed miserably. Bogged down in lots of inconsequential details that led nowhere.
The second time I bought a brand new edition of it (late eighties) solely because it came with a big fold out chart showing who was who and their relevance.
This helped me get a bit further but I went into 'page blindedness' where I was reading the same page for a long time but couldn't absorb enough details to make sense of it.
Gave it to a charity shop and resolved not to have a third attempt


It took me about a month to read it . I enjoyed it. :cool:
 
I love War and Peace! But I confess that I have not read the concluding historical reflections material.

As for your comment, Danny, above (#10) -- I suppose good readers (disinterested, alert, responsive, etc.) will always be a minority -- although the same people won't always be the good readers, i.e. someone who usually isn't a good reader may be a good reader when the right book is in his or her hands, and someone who reads well fairly often might not always do so.

I suppose a big problem with schools is that English teachers may lack much interest in literary works that they are expected to teach. For example, feminist teachers may have an aversion to classics by male authors, and it's true that most of the classics were written by men. Some English teachers in the schools ceased to read or be interested in classic works as soon as they got their degrees.

As I write these sentences I am thinking also of actual teachers whom I know or knew. The feminist dismissed a multi-page list of standard British and American works that I give to students for "lifelong reading": "white male patriarchy." That was two years ago and I must have thought of that stunning remark several times a week every week since then, or nearly. The uninterested (so far as I could tell) teacher seemed to me a bit of a dry stick -- he was quite interested in baseball and in some bestselling fiction, but if he read classics at any time except when he had to, I'm not now aware of it. And these two are college teachers -- teachers of prospective English teachers. A third colleague is a warm-hearted soul who seems to see the value of literature as instrumental, in that you can read books by people from Iran or the Philippines or whatever to get insight into the "perspectives" of diverse societies; reading such things can help us to be more considerate of people from backgrounds different than our own, etc. There's truth in that and some value in it but I'm not sure this is exactly a literary value.
 
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Thank you! Plenty of stuff from the late 50s and early 60s are classics. Much stuff isn't Sturgeon's law and all...
 
I wonder if Neuromancer counts? It's not been around terribly long (1983, I think), but it is pretty influential. While it's hardly an easy read, I do think it's quite stylishly written in a noir manner, and lays down something of a template. I'd say that not just cyberpunk SF but SFF in general owes a fair bit to it - although that might just be a general sense of noir seeping in, probably from even earlier sources.
 

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