Lafayette
Man of Artistic Fingers
My setting is pseudo France around 1492. One of my characters is referring to another as a wimp. Wimp I believe is too 20th or 21st century. Is there an old word I could use?
I need a word for Wimp
- Thread starter Lafayette
- Start date
wimp: coward, namby-pamby, pantywaist, milksop, weakling, milquetoast; informal sissy, wuss, pansy, candy-ass, scaredy-cat, chicken, twinkie, cupcake; archaic poltroon.
Personally I liked 'poltroon', as fitting French society - but even that doesn't feel fifteenth century (no, I was not speaking French in the fifteenth century, but… Langue d'Oc, or langue d'Oil?
Personally I liked 'poltroon', as fitting French society - but even that doesn't feel fifteenth century (no, I was not speaking French in the fifteenth century, but… Langue d'Oc, or langue d'Oil?
My initial thought was for, Ninny - foolish and weak person. Which apparently first appeared in print about a century after 1500 or so. It's origins go back further and I dug up this (from Ninny « The Word Detective):
“Ninny,” meaning “a simpleton or fool,” is indeed that old, and first appeared in print (as far as we know) in 1593, during the reign (1558-1603) of Queen Elizabeth I of England. A “ninny,” in modern usage, is not merely uninformed, stupid or wrong, but also laughably silly. “Ninny” almost certainly originated as a modification of “an innocent,” through a process called “metanalysis” in which the “n” of the “an” was grafted onto the noun, producing “a ninnocent,” or “a ninny.” (The same process changed “an ewt” into “a newt” and, in reverse, transformed “a napron.” related to “napkin,” into “an apron.”)
Today calling someone “an innocent” would probably not be regarded as a grave insult. But back in the 14th century the word, which had since about 1200 meant someone pure and “unacquainted with evil,” such as a child, began to be used to mean, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it delicately, “One wanting in ordinary knowledge or intelligence; a simpleton, a silly fellow; a half-wit, an idiot.” (Or, as Mel Brooks memorably put it in Blazing Saddles, “You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. … You know … morons.”) So when “an innocent” became “a ninny,” it definitely wasn’t a compliment to the target of the term.
A similar change in sense can be found in the history of “nice,” today the epitome of the tepid compliment. The root of “nice” is the Latin “nescius,” meaning literally “not knowing,” and “nice” has been hopping all over the semantic map since it first appeared in English in the 13th century. Originally used to mean “foolish or stupid” (reflecting the Old French “nice” from which it was borrowed), “nice” went on to mean “wanton or lascivious” (as in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales), but then switched course to mean “timid,” then “fussy” and “dainty,” then “precise,” then “agreeable,” and finally a vague sort of “kind.” It’s no wonder that “nice” seems so devoid of meaning today. The poor word has whiplash.
So if you were going 'full-historical'(-esque? I see you say pseudo France) calling someone 'innocent' or 'nice' may be historically accurate. However this is, as the article states, will likely leave modern readers confused
“Ninny,” meaning “a simpleton or fool,” is indeed that old, and first appeared in print (as far as we know) in 1593, during the reign (1558-1603) of Queen Elizabeth I of England. A “ninny,” in modern usage, is not merely uninformed, stupid or wrong, but also laughably silly. “Ninny” almost certainly originated as a modification of “an innocent,” through a process called “metanalysis” in which the “n” of the “an” was grafted onto the noun, producing “a ninnocent,” or “a ninny.” (The same process changed “an ewt” into “a newt” and, in reverse, transformed “a napron.” related to “napkin,” into “an apron.”)
Today calling someone “an innocent” would probably not be regarded as a grave insult. But back in the 14th century the word, which had since about 1200 meant someone pure and “unacquainted with evil,” such as a child, began to be used to mean, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it delicately, “One wanting in ordinary knowledge or intelligence; a simpleton, a silly fellow; a half-wit, an idiot.” (Or, as Mel Brooks memorably put it in Blazing Saddles, “You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. … You know … morons.”) So when “an innocent” became “a ninny,” it definitely wasn’t a compliment to the target of the term.
A similar change in sense can be found in the history of “nice,” today the epitome of the tepid compliment. The root of “nice” is the Latin “nescius,” meaning literally “not knowing,” and “nice” has been hopping all over the semantic map since it first appeared in English in the 13th century. Originally used to mean “foolish or stupid” (reflecting the Old French “nice” from which it was borrowed), “nice” went on to mean “wanton or lascivious” (as in Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales), but then switched course to mean “timid,” then “fussy” and “dainty,” then “precise,” then “agreeable,” and finally a vague sort of “kind.” It’s no wonder that “nice” seems so devoid of meaning today. The poor word has whiplash.
So if you were going 'full-historical'(-esque? I see you say pseudo France) calling someone 'innocent' or 'nice' may be historically accurate. However this is, as the article states, will likely leave modern readers confused
Yellow belly, chinless/jawless, lilylivered, are the only ones I can think of.
Don't you feel like it might be acceptable to invent one? I've made up a few words in my historic-setting wip. You could make compounds from some of Chrispy and VB's.
Word sounds are important to our understanding of language so if you're really stuck, I'd start there and have some fun inventing new ones.
pH
Don't you feel like it might be acceptable to invent one? I've made up a few words in my historic-setting wip. You could make compounds from some of Chrispy and VB's.
Word sounds are important to our understanding of language so if you're really stuck, I'd start there and have some fun inventing new ones.
pH
Poltroon is first recorded in 1520, but it's come to us from the French (from the Italian originally) so may well have been in verbal use there some 30 years earlier. It does mean coward, or as Collins online puts it "an abject or contemptible coward" though it also carries a hint of laziness and being something of a rascal to my ear, so not quite the same as wimp, which decidedly means weak as opposed to callously self-protecting.
Craven is more usually used as an adjective, but is also a noun meaning cowardly, and was in use from about 1400 (as an adjective at least), but if you're wanting a word signifying weak rather than cowardly, then at that time, weak = womankind -- as indeed it still is in too many modern-day neanderthals -- so insults would revolve around the man being seen as womanish or effeminate.
If you want words that are contemporary with your setting, then the best resource is the Online Etymology Dictionary, which is where I've found the above dates, and you can check out the other suggestions given above. Here it confirms "wimp" is first recorded in 1920 Online Etymology Dictionary
However, the problem very often isn't necessarily that a word is newly-coined, but that it feels so jarringly modern. There will be a lot of words brought into life in the C18th, C19th and even C20th which feel older than they are, and which won't stand out so much in your prose. Anything coined later will be more noticeable, and that's particularly the case for teenage-type expressions and slang terms.
Phyrebrat's "yellow belly" is a case in point. Yellow in medieval and Renaissance eras signified jealousy, and only became used for cowardice in mid-C19th, while "yellow-bellied" itself is even later, apparently from 1924. But it feels far older than "wimp" and wouldn't be noticed as out of place in an historically-based novel by most readers. Words such as "poltroon" on the other hand, which are genuinely old, are going to stick out like sore thumbs if the rest of your vocabulary in narrative and your characters' dialogue is modern.
Craven is more usually used as an adjective, but is also a noun meaning cowardly, and was in use from about 1400 (as an adjective at least), but if you're wanting a word signifying weak rather than cowardly, then at that time, weak = womankind -- as indeed it still is in too many modern-day neanderthals -- so insults would revolve around the man being seen as womanish or effeminate.
If you want words that are contemporary with your setting, then the best resource is the Online Etymology Dictionary, which is where I've found the above dates, and you can check out the other suggestions given above. Here it confirms "wimp" is first recorded in 1920 Online Etymology Dictionary
However, the problem very often isn't necessarily that a word is newly-coined, but that it feels so jarringly modern. There will be a lot of words brought into life in the C18th, C19th and even C20th which feel older than they are, and which won't stand out so much in your prose. Anything coined later will be more noticeable, and that's particularly the case for teenage-type expressions and slang terms.
Phyrebrat's "yellow belly" is a case in point. Yellow in medieval and Renaissance eras signified jealousy, and only became used for cowardice in mid-C19th, while "yellow-bellied" itself is even later, apparently from 1924. But it feels far older than "wimp" and wouldn't be noticed as out of place in an historically-based novel by most readers. Words such as "poltroon" on the other hand, which are genuinely old, are going to stick out like sore thumbs if the rest of your vocabulary in narrative and your characters' dialogue is modern.
tinkerdan
∞<Q-Satis
Dandy or popinjay seem to deal more with the way one dresses and might not come close enough; though fop might get you nearer to the goal.
Ninny, wuss, and puss don't go back as far as fop.
Though fop was used at the same time it seems to date back to 1440.
However they could all have roots in words used much earlier than 1800's
Ninny, wuss, and puss don't go back as far as fop.
Though fop was used at the same time it seems to date back to 1440.
However they could all have roots in words used much earlier than 1800's
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 8,136
I did look into 17th century slang, but a lot of it sounds vaguely silly to modern ears. In the WIP, which is set in a Renaissance-equivalent setting, I've used "flower" as slang for an effete or weak man. I could see two brutal medieval thugs using "womanly", but I don't think it would work with more sophisticated types or in a setting where women have similar jobs to men. Would "weedy" work, or is that a bit too childish? "Don't be so feeble" might be one way of getting around the problem.
You'd need to check all the meanings, but "Thou pigeon-liver’d, cream-faced, puke-stocking, lack-linen, beslubbering, qualling, mewling, fustilarian, rampallian, tallow-catch!", as Mr W Shakespeare said, scattered around his entertainments...
I like this one. Not only does it sound a la francais, but what could be more pathetic and deserving of contempt than glorious toast made inedibly sodden with milk -- or even worse, "milque".
According to Wiktionary, the word, milquetoast is ancient, first being coined all the way back in 1924, and named after a cartoon character.
That cartoon character was named after the contempt-deserving milk toast, a delicacy from over the Pond (which Wikipedia has the cheek to call "fairly innocuous").
That cartoon character was named after the contempt-deserving milk toast, a delicacy from over the Pond (which Wikipedia has the cheek to call "fairly innocuous").
Yep, C20th and American to boot. It don't come worse than that.
Milksop seems about the right sort of time and passes the HareBrain Bread/milk test
milksop. "effeminate spiritless man," late 14c., attested as a (fictional) surname mid-13c.; also applied in Middle English to the infant Christ. Literal sense "piece of bread soaked in milk" attested late 15c.; see milk (n.) + sop (n.).
Although I know one must be very careful of just picking up the first thing that appears in your browser when typing in 'origins of word milksop' But I'm not going to research it any further
milksop. "effeminate spiritless man," late 14c., attested as a (fictional) surname mid-13c.; also applied in Middle English to the infant Christ. Literal sense "piece of bread soaked in milk" attested late 15c.; see milk (n.) + sop (n.).
Although I know one must be very careful of just picking up the first thing that appears in your browser when typing in 'origins of word milksop' But I'm not going to research it any further
The word I know for that bread-and-milk combination is Pobs**.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have the right ring to it for a term of abuse or condemnation. Also, it's from the north of England -- so may not work with the situation in Lafayette's story -- and (at least to me) is of uncertain vintage (although the link in the note below suggests it may be old enough).
** - This link provides an image of the dish, which looks far from appetising.
Unfortunately, it doesn't have the right ring to it for a term of abuse or condemnation. Also, it's from the north of England -- so may not work with the situation in Lafayette's story -- and (at least to me) is of uncertain vintage (although the link in the note below suggests it may be old enough).
** - This link provides an image of the dish, which looks far from appetising.
Here's another look at some other words, from the French side of things, at that sort of time (ish). Some of which may be relevant:
Old French Insults by Gillian Polack PhD
Old French Insults by Gillian Polack PhD
I dunno, I think I could manage to make 'pobs' offensive in conversation during my days commuting round the London warren.
But, I have always favoured milquetoast and milksop as old cusses.
A lot of Caribbean and West African pidgin uses very archaic images and syntax. You could look into them and anglicise them more.
E.g.
Yer feece feeva s***
(Your face favours sh..)
Meaning. Your face looks like excrement
So, the opposite of milquetoast I suppose
pH
But, I have always favoured milquetoast and milksop as old cusses.
A lot of Caribbean and West African pidgin uses very archaic images and syntax. You could look into them and anglicise them more.
E.g.
Yer feece feeva s***
(Your face favours sh..)
Meaning. Your face looks like excrement
So, the opposite of milquetoast I suppose
pH
Yep, C20th and American to boot. It don't come worse than that.
But it would be perfect, if only Lafayette could ensure that all his readers were as ignorant as I.
Danny McG
Lid closed, monkey dead.
A regular breakfast when growing up. Still the favourite of the youngest of my seven sisters
How about "le weemp"?
When I was a child, my mother created some pobs, in a saucer for our cat, which was ill.A regular breakfast when growing up. Still the favourite of the youngest of my seven sisters
The cat played, for a few seconds, with one of the small pieces of bread floating in the milk, but did not drink the milk itself (which is what my mother wanted it to do, given it wasn't eating anything solid).
Other than that, I haven't seen pobs in real life (if you can call what I saw pobs...).
| Thread starter | Similar threads | Forum | Replies | Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Need a word for... | Writing Discussion | 10 | |
|
|
Need a more exact word for... | Writing Discussion | 13 | |
|
Fewer usage of the word flame is needed | Writing Discussion | 27 | |
|
Rewording help needed | Writing Discussion | 22 | |
|
900 words - need a skill boost | Critiques | 16 |