Wonder Woman (2017) (Spoilers)

[hopewrites]

Saw this the other day. And enjoyed how it differed from the Wonder Woman of my childhood.

When I was a kid the Wonder Woman playing on tv (along with rambo and zena) was misogynisticly feminist. And while I loved the idea of a truth lasso, it's application was slightly S&M and the people caught in it relieved to tell the truth. Which is not how I would have used my truth lasso.


I SO appreciate this WW because she didnt have to, nor try to, emasculate anything to assert her personal power. Steve didnt feel or act anything but grateful when she saved him. His shock at her behavior was consistent with his era, but not the shock of disapproval or even injured sensibilities.

I love LOVE that her lasso while forcing truth from its subjects also allows them their emotional truth while dealing with truth being forced from them.

Gripes? The few I had are small and easily set aside to maintain suspension of disbelief and not big enough to dampen my enjoyment of the movie.
Aries, while a God (not Goddess) of war, is a chick not a dude. But I suppose that's a comic book change to the original mythology that I shouldn't quibble about.
There's no way anyone can get on a horse in that dress, let alone wait till their galloping along at a fair clip to fling it off.



That's it. Those were my gripes.
Overall I enjoyed it immensely. Lookiny forward to buying a special feature laden dvd/blu ray.


Anyone else care to share their opinions?

 

[Charles Gull]

There were approximately 50% too many female breasts in evidence.

The 'original' Amazons allegedly cut off one of their own breasts so as not to interfere with the archery bowstring.

The other one they kept so that they could still breastfeed (in some depictions whilst fighting) because that was the best way to ensure the strongest fighters for the next generation. They were true warrior mothers.

Very little of that in evidence in the film.

 

[Randy M.]

Charles, I knew I liked Gadot as WW before the movie was through post-production when she dealt with criticism from some quarters of not being busty enough for the role by mentioning the fact you raise.

As for the rest of it, I don't think many Greeks or Romans would have recognized Steve Reeves or Arnold as Hercules, and I have serious doubts a true Viking would be impressed by modern Thor. We adapt myths and legends as we need them and our adaptations say more about us than about our ancestors. Which may also explain recent versions of Superman and Batman.

Me, I like the movie, too, Hopewrites. I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?


Randy M.

 

[Charles Gull]

Charles, I knew I liked Gadot as WW before the movie was through post-production when she dealt with criticism from some quarters of not being busty enough for the role by mentioning the fact you raise.

As for the rest of it, I don't think many Greeks or Romans would have recognized Steve Reeves or Arnold as Hercules, and I have serious doubts a true Viking would be impressed by modern Thor. We adapt myths and legends as we need them and our adaptations say more about us than about our ancestors. Which may also explain recent versions of Superman and Batman.

Me, I like the movie, too, Hopewrites. I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?


Randy M.

Touche.

Actually, I liked the film too, in general. My reservations are more 'DC' related than 'WW'. Some sections of the scenography dragged on a little and it took itself just a little bit too seriously at times.

For me the best scene was the (apparently unscripted and spontaneously ad-libbed) boat conversation. That calm, confident, honest and deeply intelligent depiction of WW was for me the most likably feminist thing in the whole film.

But then, I'm a bloke so what do I know?

 

[Venusian Broon]

Damn, derailing a thread to talk about breasts...ah well.

Actually I believe most ancient depictions of Amazons in Greek pottery or in sculpture had them fully doubled-breasted. In fact I don't think there is an example of a poor women who has been cauterised in Greek or Roman art. (Which would probably have killed the girl anyway, but that's modern medical science for you.)

I believe there was one 'source' of the one-breasted sub-myth and I think he came to that conclusion based on the Greek love of etymology and the possible deconstruction of the Greek word for Amazon to mean 'One-breasted'. But seemingly it could also be deconstructed to be 'full breasted' or 'not-touching men' so there was a lot of leeway. (See their theorising of history based on the etymology of place names. All a bit mad.)

Hence if it was good enough for most of the originators of the myth and the visual industry of the classical period (ceramics of amazons were in high demand at the time), then I think it can be good enough for Gal Gadot and crew.

Hope, I thought Ares was in fact a dude in the movie. Or did I miss some important scene

I quite it enjoyed the movie overall as well, daft but fun - so I ignored all the plot holes, although I have to say I'm not the greatest fan of superhero extravaganzas.

 

[Charles Gull]

Damn, derailing a thread to talk about breasts...ah well.

Yeah, I'm always being accused of derailing threads. I'm sure to get the wooden spoon soon. But as soon as I do, I'll be able to bake lots of cakes for all my feminist friends.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Yeah, I'm always being accused of derailing threads. I'm sure to get the wooden spoon soon. But as soon as I do, I'll be able to bake lots of cakes for all my feminist friends.

Don't worry, I derail constantly. I think as long as you always make an attempt to correct it's fine.

And I'm bound up in the lasso of truth at the moment so you can trust me with that one...

 

[Randy M.]

Touche.

Actually, I liked the film too, in general. My reservations are more 'DC' related than 'WW'. Some sections of the scenography dragged on a little and it took itself just a little bit too seriously at times.

For me the best scene was the (apparently unscripted and spontaneously ad-libbed) boat conversation. That calm, confident, honest and deeply intelligent depiction of WW was for me the most likably feminist thing in the whole film.

But then, I'm a bloke so what do I know?

I thought your tongue was mostly in cheek, but for me any excuse to bloviate ...

My wife was won over by the movie even though she's tired of superheros and will welcome the current fad subsiding. I think her acceptance of the movie goes to the story being about WW coming to maturity and losing her view of war as glamorous, but also to the cast and especially Pine and Gadot and their chemistry. I'm glad WW didn't get made sooner, though I only now realize we were



... it's coming ...





... it's almost here ...




Waiting for Gadot.


Randy M.
(yeah, yeah, like you didn't want to use that gag)

 

[Dave]

I wasn't planning on seeing this, but given all the good reviews I may just. A sequel has already been greenlighted.

When I was a kid the Wonder Woman playing on tv (along with rambo and zena) was misogynisticly feminist.

Me, I like the movie, too, Hopewrites. I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?

@TweetingBogart on Twitter 'complained' that this was "yet another film perpetuating the myth that all museum workers lead glamorous double lives... We're just too tired."

Given that the recently lauded as "feminist," Ghostbusters film, also had a cast with white collar occupations, there may actually be a valid point here. Why isn't Wonder Woman a construction worker or given an occupation that would be given to a male superhero, such as a journalist or a rich socialite? Stock Superhero Day Jobs - TV Tropes

I am puzzled though. I was sure Rambo was portrayed as a man, despite Sylvester Stallone's short stature.

 

[Stuart Suffel]

There were approximately 50% too many female breasts in evidence.

The 'original' Amazons allegedly cut off one of their own breasts so as not to interfere with the archery bowstring.

The other one they kept so that they could still breastfeed (in some depictions whilst fighting) because that was the best way to ensure the strongest fighters for the next generation. They were true warrior mothers.

Very little of that in evidence in the film.

Em...

Er...

Nope. I got nothing.

 

[Stuart Suffel]

I am curious, though, how does one go about being "misogynistically feminist"?


Randy M.

Female power, according to men.

 

[Charles Gull]

Female power, according to men.

Aha! Then surely that should be 'naively feminist'. I really do object to the implication that ALL men are FUNDAMENTALLY and INTENTIONALLY misogynistic.

For me, perpetuating this propaganda is THE most damaging thing for modern feminism.

 

[Charles Gull]

Nope. I got nothing.

Just because a thing can't be observed directly, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Why bother building a shelf with two Latte cup holders if you only have one Latte cup to put on it?

 

[hopewrites]

Late replying without quotes. Sorry.


Yes, in the movie Aires is a dude. My hurmph was that the way I remembered Greek Mythology Aries was a chick who being war like got called a god instead of a goddess. More a hurmph than a full on complaint because a) I could very well have miss remembered something covered in school 20+ years ago, and/or 2) comics change mythos to fit their arcs and needs, so in this one he's a dude. I shouldn't impose my will on all worlds... C) if it bothered me enough I'd write my own version. Which I haven't, so it must not bother me that much.



How to be misogynisticly feminist in 5 easy steps.
1) all women are not only dominatrixly powerful, they go as naked as possible to prove it.

2) all women are pacifists who love to beat up men for not beng pacifists.

3) reversing gender rolls implies that gender rolls matter, which implies they are correct. / someone somewhere should always be disimpowered for having a gender.

4) chainmail bikini ftw (yes, I know, but it bares reiterating)

5) be condescending to the gender you are supposed to be empowering.




Just because you have a gender doesnt class you with people who also have that gender. Unless you're trying to use a nonunisex bathroom, and then it only applies to which room you use.
In my opinion.



Yep, Rambo was totally a dude. Those were just the shows on at the same time. For context. Because the writing for all three shows was similar enough to list them for context. Hot sweaty mostly naked warriors killin it up, solvin problems with won liners.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Late replying without quotes. Sorry.


Yes, in the movie Aires is a dude. My hurmph was that the way I remembered Greek Mythology Aries was a chick who being war like got called a god instead of a goddess. More a hurmph than a full on complaint because a) I could very well have miss remembered something covered in school 20+ years ago, and/or 2) comics change mythos to fit their arcs and needs, so in this one he's a dude. I shouldn't impose my will on all worlds... C) if it bothered me enough I'd write my own version. Which I haven't, so it must not bother me that much.

I'm sure Aries is the Ram not the god of war (he is Ares without the 'i'). But I am being a touch pedantic!

As for female deities connected to war, Athena was a goddess of war (as well as wisdom and craft) but I believe she was much calmer and more measured than Ares. And also, it has to be said probably more important, as I don't think Ares really turns up much in the mythology. However I may be wrong.

 

[hopewrites]

I probably changed it in my head then. It the school I went to said Roman and Greek mythologies were the same, with different names for the same gods, and presented the whole pantheon as a soft hussle. Pick a god any god, ok, now put it back, and Hey Presto you're Christian, forget the whole mess.
So I probably felt at liberty to make them who and what I wanted.
Which is why I cant really argue with comic book creators who've done the same.

 

[Charles Gull]

I'm sure Aries is the Ram not the god of war (he is Ares without the 'i'). But I am being a touch pedantic!

As for female deities connected to war, Athena was a goddess of war (as well as wisdom and craft) but I believe she was much calmer and more measured than Ares. And also, it has to be said probably more important, as I don't think Ares really turns up much in the mythology. However I may be wrong.

Yep, Ares was actually disliked by the Greeks. I believe he was the only Olympian for which no temple was ever erected. He was considered too much of a loose cannon, unlike his female equivalent Athena.

 

[Charles Gull]

Just because you have a gender doesnt class you with people who also have that gender. Unless you're trying to use a nonunisex bathroom, and then it only applies to which room you use.
In my opinion.

You make some interesting points.

Many people have made a big thing about WW walking into the War Cabinet (or whatever it was supposed to be). The arguement goes 'she is so feminist that she simply doesn't realise she is challenging male domination'. I see this a little differently. For me it wasn't about 'A woman in a man's world' what I saw was 'A culturally insensitive ambassador'.

Very sorry, I just don't see how her behavior was positively feminist in any way.

But, as I have mentioned before , I am a bloke so I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[hopewrites]

So...? Tangent here. But...

Ares is not Aries.
One is an abused god of war, the other is a cuddly fire sign end of march early April?

I thought I was quite sure Ares Roman counterpart was Mars, who for sure was always a dude, but the only way I remembered that was that while Mars was a dude, Ares was someone's daughter.

[the rest of this tangent is redacted for time and sanity.]
Sorry. Went off there a bit. I think I've got it now though.

 

[Charles Gull]

So...? Tangent here. But...

Ares is not Aries.
One is an abused god of war, the other is a cuddly fire sign end of march early April?

I thought I was quite sure Ares Roman counterpart was Mars, who for sure was always a dude, but the only way I remembered that was that while Mars was a dude, Ares was someone's daughter.

[the rest of this tangent is redacted for time and sanity.]
Sorry. Went off there a bit. I think I've got it now though.

The Greeks were actually quite messed up about their own mythology. They had several mutually contradictory versions.
The Romans tidied it all up a bit so the popular direct equivalence is a bit of an over simplification.