Grimdark

[MWagner]

Mark Lawrence is a completely different beast to the others.

In what way? I've read both Martin and Abercombie (enjoyed the former, not the latter), and I've been curious about Lawrence. How is his work different?

 

[Vaz]

I'd say his Jorg character is a lot darker than the others, even Abercrombie. I did hate Jorg, he's like Alex from A Clockwork Orange but really unlikeable.

It could be argued Lawrence's prose is better, but that all comes down to taste really. He can change his style well,though. His other books are quite different from his Thorns trilogy.

v

 

[The Big Peat]

Paul Kearney's The Monarchies of God and The Sea Beggars are both rather grim and rather good. The latter's the better but sadly will probably never be finished.

 

[nixie]

I'd say his Jorg character is a lot darker than the others, even Abercrombie. I did hate Jorg, he's like Alex from A Clockwork Orange but really unlikeable.

It could be argued Lawrence's prose is better, but that all comes down to taste really. He can change his style well,though. His other books are quite different from his Thorns trilogy.

v

I like Jorg, evil, ruthless, kill anyone who gets in his way but very occasionally a little spark of humanity shows through.

I prefer Abercrombie but both authors are near the top of my buy list.

 

[svalbard]

Hugh Cook's series The Chronicles of an Age of Darkness is worth a look. A number of the books are hit and miss but two are classics in my opinion. The Wizards and The Warriors and The Walrus and The Warwolf.

 

[Connavar]

Paul Kearney's The Monarchies of God and The Sea Beggars are both rather grim and rather good. The latter's the better but sadly will probably never be finished.

The Sea Beggars was really strong, it was dark, grim in the old dark S&S way, remind me alittle of Robert E. Howard. The combo of action filled heroic fantasy, dark mythology.
Its been a shame, sad to me that that series will never be finished. I wish Kearney could do something new close that good.

 

[Connavar]

I'd say his Jorg character is a lot darker than the others, even Abercrombie. I did hate Jorg, he's like Alex from A Clockwork Orange but really unlikeable.

It could be argued Lawrence's prose is better, but that all comes down to taste really. He can change his style well,though. His other books are quite different from his Thorns trilogy.

I think Abercrombie is the better writer of the two when it comes to vidid action filled,dark heroic fantasy but Jorg is the better, more fascinating character than any character, the heroes of First Law. ¨

I enjoyed Thorn series mostly because of Jorg, i adored that character because he was like criminal noir protoganist, he was the villain, the hero of his own story. I loved reading his POV because he didnt pretend to be an anti-hero,gray hero. He was nasty, power hungry guy. As fan of noir novels, im used to his type but not in heroic fantasy. I cant dislike him for being unique.

In this kind of "Grimdark" i only read Abercrombie, Lawrence these days but also because they dont write 800 bloated epic fantasy, they are more down to earth kind of heroic fantasy. I look forward to his new Red Sister book, sounds like it was more action filled, violent fantasy of Abercrombie vien, not Jorg looking to outsmart his enemies.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Sort of depends how you define "grimdark." I'd recommend Steven Erikson, but he himself disavows the label. But the Malazan books are intense, sophisticated also also really brutal. So for me, that's the ultimate grimdark fantasy. I also really like Glen Cook, and Abercrombie is a good writer as well.

In general, though, I want gritty fantasy to do something with the grit. So I look for stuff that explores the consequences of violence and moral gray scaling.

 

[BAYLOR]

Karl Edward Wagners Kane the Mystic Swordsman series fits in the Grimdark category.

 

[Le Panda du Mal]

Surely the Elric Saga is foundational for grimdark, no? I would also put The Book of the New Sun and many of Clark Ashton Smith's stories here too.

 

[hitmouse]

Surely the Elric Saga is foundational for grimdark, no? I would also put The Book of the New Sun and many of Clark Ashton Smith's stories here too.

One could argue that many major fantasy works before about 1985 are foundational, including LOTR.
I think BOTNS is a bit of a stretch.
Elric is an interesting proposition as a precursor: it certainly has elements that have been widely used in lots of subsequent fantasy, including grimdark, but in itself it is something a bit different.

 

[BAYLOR]

Then there's the Kane the Mystic Swordsman sage by Karl Edward Wagner and one could even argue that the Kothar series by Gardner Francis Fox could be in that category

Magus Rex by Jack Lovejoy

 

[biodroid]

Joe Abercrombie is kinda the daddy of Grimdark

 

[BAYLOR]

1. Creation Descending by Jack Lovejoy
2. The Second Kingdom by Jack Lovejoy
3. The Brotherhood of Diablo by Jack Lovejoy

 

[nixie]

Sort of depends how you define "grimdark." I'd recommend Steven Erikson, but he himself disavows the label. But the Malazan books are intense, sophisticated also also really brutal. So for me, that's the ultimate grimdark fantasy. I also really like Glen Cook, and Abercrombie is a good writer as well.

In general, though, I want gritty fantasy to do something with the grit. So I look for stuff that explores the consequences of violence and moral gray scaling.

I don't consider Steven Erikson's Malazan books grimdark.
Joe Abercrombie yes, Mark Lawrence, his first two series are but for me the next two aren't.

 

[BAYLOR]

I don't consider Steven Erikson's Malazan books grimdark.
Joe Abercrombie yes, Mark Lawrence, his first two series are but for me the next two aren't.

The worlds they are set in definitely not cheerful places.

 

[Rodders]

Would things such as Judge Dredd or Halo Jones be considered Grimdark? Sure , there aren’t any monsters but the personal futures are pretty bleak with most people unemployed and looking forward to a grim, violent death at the hands of local thugs or a life in the cubes.

 

[BAYLOR]

Would things such as Judge Dredd or Halo Jones be considered Grimdark? Sure , there aren’t any monsters but the personal futures are pretty bleak with most people unemployed and looking forward to a grim, violent death at the hands of local thugs or a life in the cubes.

Could be

The Kothar series by Garden Francis Fox could fit into that category too .

 

[HareBrain]

I can't see Erikson as Grimdark. It lacks the necessary all-round cynicism.

Lots of fantasy is dark. The point of Grimdark is surely that it's "not just dark, it's grim dark". The term is jokingly tautological, pointing up a kind of almost tongue-in-cheek deliberateness on the author's part.

 

[The Big Peat]

Surely the Elric Saga is foundational for grimdark, no? I would also put The Book of the New Sun and many of Clark Ashton Smith's stories here too.

Depends how you define grimdark.

If you're referring to the specific fictional movement called grimdark, starting with Abercrombie and Lawrence, then to the best of my knowledge no. To hear them talk about it, it was more they read stuff like Lord of the Rings and the Belgariad, and wanted something a lot dirtier. Abercrombie cites Song of Ice and Fire iirc as making him realise it could be done, Lawrence is a Gormenghast fan iirc... but I don't think Moorcock is particularly an influence. I think some second wave authors like Peter McLean call him an influence mind.

As a general current of fiction... yeah, I'd say so. He took a lot of the grit and grime and horror of Sword & Sorcery and Lovecraftian horror and Gormenghast and myth turned it up to 11.

And I don't think you have the term grimdark without Moorcock, because it comes from Warhammer, and it's impossible to imagine Warhammer without Moorcock.