cgsmith
Well-Known Member
When you are writing a story and have multiple main characters, all of which you are writing pretty close to, how do you handle it when they are all in the same scene without head hopping?
multiple characters, close third person
- Thread starter cgsmith
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Ideally, you focus on the character who experiences the most conflict in the scene.
With great difficulty.
Purely personal feeling, but head-hopping is like so many other 'bad' things in writing - it's only as bad as you make it. If your head-hopping is confusing, or so jarring that that it knocks the reader out of the flow of the story, then fix it. If it reads well and doesn't cause mental head-scratching, it's fine.
(As a caveat, I don't go in for 'formal' writing - this story is going to be in 4th person high-handed, 100%, every paragraph checked for compliance - I just get on and write what seems to work for the story. I tend to go for 1st person (even multiple 1st) and what is probably close third, but I don't get too hung up on technicalities.)
Purely personal feeling, but head-hopping is like so many other 'bad' things in writing - it's only as bad as you make it. If your head-hopping is confusing, or so jarring that that it knocks the reader out of the flow of the story, then fix it. If it reads well and doesn't cause mental head-scratching, it's fine.
(As a caveat, I don't go in for 'formal' writing - this story is going to be in 4th person high-handed, 100%, every paragraph checked for compliance - I just get on and write what seems to work for the story. I tend to go for 1st person (even multiple 1st) and what is probably close third, but I don't get too hung up on technicalities.)
cgsmith
Well-Known Member
Gosh, I have missed this forum.
Um, well I have a fourth character, who is a sort of guide/ancient who I think I might use to introduce the group (though I have already paired off the third character who will have her own track but be mentioned in the meeting of the now 2 instead of 3 main characters. The older character's job in the world is basically guidance counsellor.
Something I want to avoid is the repetitive introduction and getting to know, then introduction and getting to know of the characters which I often find off-putting when reading stories with lots of characters.
Um, well I have a fourth character, who is a sort of guide/ancient who I think I might use to introduce the group (though I have already paired off the third character who will have her own track but be mentioned in the meeting of the now 2 instead of 3 main characters. The older character's job in the world is basically guidance counsellor.
Something I want to avoid is the repetitive introduction and getting to know, then introduction and getting to know of the characters which I often find off-putting when reading stories with lots of characters.
Then don't do it!
We should be able to rely, to a great degree, on the readers getting to know the characters -- to the extent that they need to -- by seeing what they do, hearing what they say and, in the case of PoV characters, reading what they think about the situations that they're in as the story progresses. Surely anything else is infordumping and/or "telling not showing".
In films, where we don't usually have the benefit of hearing anyone's thoughts, we don't get a biography when someone new appears on the screen, and yet the storytelling doesn't usually suffer because of this.
Ihe
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Ask yourself: is the head-hopping really necessary? If the scene happens early in the story, you might have a justification for it (but don't overuse it!). If it happens later on, once the reader has gotten to know the characters, you shouldn't need to head-hop. You could just have the one viewpoint character, and then readers will be able to infer thoughts/motivations from the others' external actions and dialogue alone, because they will know them more or less by then.
Usually, do without head-hopping if you can. It waters down characterisation in the scene and stretches the reader's attention thin--or worse, it can misdirect it. You also need a strong, clear understanding and dominion over POV to not mess it up. No law says you can't do it, but with head-hopping the benefits rarely outweigh the risks IMO.
Usually, do without head-hopping if you can. It waters down characterisation in the scene and stretches the reader's attention thin--or worse, it can misdirect it. You also need a strong, clear understanding and dominion over POV to not mess it up. No law says you can't do it, but with head-hopping the benefits rarely outweigh the risks IMO.
EJDeBrun
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I would focus on visuals and dialogue, if it were me. I use two major close third POV's, but each scene will have multiple characters. And I work very hard to use show and not tell. The amount of "self-talk" I could count on my fingers and i'm about 2/3s in at 72k. Having said that, I very firmly stick to my two characters and tell everything from their POV. but that doesn't mean the other characters don't count for anything. They're just shown through those two particular set of eyes.
In this case, I think the key thing is to make sure everyone has a very particular voice and look. People react differently to the same events. If you're careful about how they speak or how they react and really draw out their personalities, you will be able to avoid any confusion. Adding some expressions will also heighten the emotions of your scenes. Glances, frowns. Does one character blush? Does another one frown? Does someone always use their hands to talk? Does someone else like to avoid locking eyes? All these things will help draw out the individuality to give them a more three dimensional feel. The back story stuff can come out in spurts in dialogue, but how they speak really matters. Does one character curse? Does another one have an accent? Maybe someone like to ask a lot of questions and that annoys someone else. And try not to dump too much expose into the dialogue. That can be... confusing and boring.
Uh... just like this post. Oh well! Hope that helps.
In this case, I think the key thing is to make sure everyone has a very particular voice and look. People react differently to the same events. If you're careful about how they speak or how they react and really draw out their personalities, you will be able to avoid any confusion. Adding some expressions will also heighten the emotions of your scenes. Glances, frowns. Does one character blush? Does another one frown? Does someone always use their hands to talk? Does someone else like to avoid locking eyes? All these things will help draw out the individuality to give them a more three dimensional feel. The back story stuff can come out in spurts in dialogue, but how they speak really matters. Does one character curse? Does another one have an accent? Maybe someone like to ask a lot of questions and that annoys someone else. And try not to dump too much expose into the dialogue. That can be... confusing and boring.
Uh... just like this post. Oh well! Hope that helps.
The simple - if unhelpful- answer to this is 'write better'. Sadly that just comes from experience and hours of application to your craft.
I think if you get a bit method-acty it might help you stay in character. I have caught myself grimacing when writing one of my characters as he is fuelled by vengeance and when I'm searching for a nice turn of phrase for my glib but sly abbot, I do this slack bland face.
Not all the time, mind, just when I'm searching for a word or phrase.
pH
I think if you get a bit method-acty it might help you stay in character. I have caught myself grimacing when writing one of my characters as he is fuelled by vengeance and when I'm searching for a nice turn of phrase for my glib but sly abbot, I do this slack bland face.
Not all the time, mind, just when I'm searching for a word or phrase.
pH
Colour each pov differently and highlight them. The most colour is generally the dominant pov. Now ask yourself how you can put the other thoughts into that povs.
Steve Harrison
Well-Known Member
I write using multiple POVs (25 characters in my first novel and half a dozen in the second), but I limit the POV to one character per chapter, which keeps things clear for the reader. If two or more of the POV characters are regularly together, I will use a different character POV each time, which is terrific for developing the other characters.
If the group scene is a one-off, I work out which character POV is best suited to describe the action. And this can be fun if you have the time to rewrite the same scene multiple times, each from a different POV.
There is no definitive way of handling this issue, it's just a case of what works for you, well, works!
If the group scene is a one-off, I work out which character POV is best suited to describe the action. And this can be fun if you have the time to rewrite the same scene multiple times, each from a different POV.
There is no definitive way of handling this issue, it's just a case of what works for you, well, works!
It shouldn’t be too hard to avoid head hopping, once you decide which POV you are in. No different than any other scene in which your POV interacts with other characters. As for deciding who... that is the rub. Who has the most at stake? Who stands to gain or lose the most from the sequence? Show me them.
If it is exactly equal, then whoever has gone the longest since the last screen time I suppose. Although, as I think about it, I expect it should never be exactly equal... if it feels that way, maybe the scene (or one of the characters) is missing something.
If it is exactly equal, then whoever has gone the longest since the last screen time I suppose. Although, as I think about it, I expect it should never be exactly equal... if it feels that way, maybe the scene (or one of the characters) is missing something.
DelActivisto
WARG!
I would avoid head hopping altogether if I were you. Complete omniscience is one thing, where a god-like narrator describes all that is relevant to the story and describes thoughts and feelings of anyone who is necessary to the plot and story. But to be in third-person and then go head hopping always makes me head start spinning. It's unnatural and unrealistic. What possible situation would we ever have where we logically head hop from person to person? It's the one thing I would advocate as an actual writing rule - no head hopping!
Instead tell us from one character's POV. Shifts are certainly possible, but I prefer a story where we devote a few paragraphs or a chapter or so to a character, then revert back to the main character say, or the next important person, and so on. In this way, we are remaining true to the third-person aspect of the story. In that case I would suppose what we are doing is describing a scene that the POV character is involved in where a lot of different people are talking. In this case we describe the scene as needed. I would wager, though, a conversation with many people can get confusing, but so it is also true in reality.
Instead tell us from one character's POV. Shifts are certainly possible, but I prefer a story where we devote a few paragraphs or a chapter or so to a character, then revert back to the main character say, or the next important person, and so on. In this way, we are remaining true to the third-person aspect of the story. In that case I would suppose what we are doing is describing a scene that the POV character is involved in where a lot of different people are talking. In this case we describe the scene as needed. I would wager, though, a conversation with many people can get confusing, but so it is also true in reality.
Incidentally, sf is the only genre that has this obsession with staying with one pov only (and romance, for structural reasons). Most others are much more flexible with pov shifting in scenes. In some ways I'm sad I lost my ability to shift well.
crystal haven
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Some romance novels have more than two pov, and do move from one to another in a scene, but it's not usually close third.
I would say choose the pov character that has the most to lose, the one most affected by the scene. Also, if wanting to move into a different pov, the way that I feel works well is to have a character naturally move out of the space - maybe they walk to look out of a window, for instance. This leaves the other characters, and one can be picked up with their pov taking away any obvious head hop.
I would say choose the pov character that has the most to lose, the one most affected by the scene. Also, if wanting to move into a different pov, the way that I feel works well is to have a character naturally move out of the space - maybe they walk to look out of a window, for instance. This leaves the other characters, and one can be picked up with their pov taking away any obvious head hop.
tinkerdan
∞<Q-Satis
In my first book there are two characters who keep trying to take the POV from each other when they are together. I tried separating them but I finally realized that sometimes it just works out best when you let them do their thing as long as it doesn't become obsessive. Usually it's a place where it fades from the one into the other and then quickly fades out and back almost like a flashback. Probably not as dramatic as some romance novels yet possibly quite the same. Otherwise I try to avoid head hopping like I would the plague.
AnyaKimlin
Confuddled
One of my stories has four points of views (a father and his three sons). The sequel has five (a father, two sons, a daughter-in-law and a grandson)
I find it fairly easy to stay in the right head because they view each other differently to how they view themselves. Each one has a different voice and tone so it feels wrong when I hop into another head.
For example, I can write a scene from the point of view of the father in my story and he sees his eldest son as a big kid, a fifty-year-old man who has never really grown up. He describes him as lanky with four facial expressions, cheeky, funeral, happy and "I've done something you're not going to like, so please don't kill me".
Said fifty-year-old man is under the impression his boss has taken him on because he's handsome and eye-candy for her clients.
The same fifty-year-old man is viewed by his son with anger for a variety of reasons but you also see his love for his dad (which doesn't come across in fifty-year-old man's POV)
The father presents himself as an older man, and a bit of a scruff, but when a forensic pathologist describes him she mentions he has beautiful eyes, handsome face but a disappointing backside.
I find it fairly easy to stay in the right head because they view each other differently to how they view themselves. Each one has a different voice and tone so it feels wrong when I hop into another head.
For example, I can write a scene from the point of view of the father in my story and he sees his eldest son as a big kid, a fifty-year-old man who has never really grown up. He describes him as lanky with four facial expressions, cheeky, funeral, happy and "I've done something you're not going to like, so please don't kill me".
Said fifty-year-old man is under the impression his boss has taken him on because he's handsome and eye-candy for her clients.
The same fifty-year-old man is viewed by his son with anger for a variety of reasons but you also see his love for his dad (which doesn't come across in fifty-year-old man's POV)
The father presents himself as an older man, and a bit of a scruff, but when a forensic pathologist describes him she mentions he has beautiful eyes, handsome face but a disappointing backside.
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I write one character per chapter, and decide on whose chapter it will be by, similar to what Brian was saying, by determining whose actions are most likely to drive the plot on, and who are therefore going to have more agency and emotional response to what’s going on.
As Ph says, it only
Comes with experience; my first attempt at it was a head hopping pig’s ear, but I’ve subsequently got my head around it.
I find it helps not to have too many POVs occupying the same physical space; ie if you have 6 POVs, don’t stick them all in the same group. Mine tend to have heir own plot strands and supporting players, which overlap and dovetail where necessary. IMO That helps keep things clear for the reader, and allows for more “world” to be shown.
As Ph says, it only
Comes with experience; my first attempt at it was a head hopping pig’s ear, but I’ve subsequently got my head around it.
I find it helps not to have too many POVs occupying the same physical space; ie if you have 6 POVs, don’t stick them all in the same group. Mine tend to have heir own plot strands and supporting players, which overlap and dovetail where necessary. IMO That helps keep things clear for the reader, and allows for more “world” to be shown.
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