Puppetry and religion

[HareBrain]

(Note: any discussion here must, of course, steer clear of opinions on real-world religious beliefs except to give the kind of examples asked for below)

In book 3 of my series, the setting is going to move to a new culture and country, and I want it to have a very different flavour to the settings in the first two books, while remaining largely monotheistic. After chatting to a retired puppeteer last week, I thought about the idea of the relationship between humans and God as being similar to a puppet and its operator, but where the puppet can refuse the subtle influence of the "strings". In other words the strings are the conscience (the heart-strings, I guess they might call them).

Does anyone know of examples of this idea used in real-world religion or explored in fiction?

Or wider examples of puppetry used in religious practice or teaching, for whatever reason? Or of puppets having some kind of sacred quality?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Martin Gill]

Shamanism springs to mind, but I don't think that's the feel you are aiming for. Plus voodoo, witchcraft...

Poppet - Wikipedia

 

[Brian G Turner]

The trouble with "puppetry" is that individuals controlled by any divine force can no longer be assumed to have Free Will, and this is usually pretty essential in monotheism - the ability to make own choices, and mistakes with them.

Usually, disobeying perceived Divine Will in any religion is bad juju.

 

[Abernovo]

There's the shadow puppetry used in different parts of South-East Asia. Wayang in Indonesia? I believe it's used to tell stories from folklore, but also tales from Buddhist and Hindu scripture (dependant upon area). Not so much strings, as shadows cast, but could still be an analogy of higher beings (singular or plural) trying to dictate what happens.

Not so much different from the concept of being chess pieces on a board. Side note, there's a Scottish legend of a dodgy noble locked into a chess battle with the devil for his soul, so the refusal to obey 'strings' being pulled could be not just wresting back control, but trying to change the terms of a previous agreement.

 

[Foxbat]

Jan Svankmajer's movie Faust has some serious puppeteering going on (and being the story of Faust, it could be argued, covers one aspect of the religious context). Thought the way he's used them might give you some ideas (it's also a very good film )

 

[HareBrain]

The trouble with "puppetry" is that individuals controlled by any divine force can no longer be assumed to have Free Will, and this is usually pretty essential in monotheism - the ability to make own choices, and mistakes with them.

Yes, but you could break the strings, which might be very fragile, or otherwise disobey the guidance (perhaps at the influence of a tempter devil figure, himself stringless, who might constitute a kind of "audience"). I don't think it's so different from the idea that there's a divine voice in the soul that one can chose to obey or not, just a different metaphor for it.

 

[Venusian Broon]

The trouble with "puppetry" is that individuals controlled by any divine force can no longer be assumed to have Free Will, and this is usually pretty essential in monotheism - the ability to make own choices, and mistakes with them.

Usually, disobeying perceived Divine Will in any religion is bad juju.

Quite a lot of Protestantism dabbles with concepts that on the face of it seem to deny free will, and in important senses they do, but I won't get into any debate about that here.

Back to the topic - the idea of strings made me instantly think of Akhenaten: Though it's most often pictured as a mere circle with rays of light radiating downward, the aten also appears sometimes with little hands appended onto the ends of its solar beams holding out to worshipers the ankh, the Egyptian sign of life. In a few instances, the hands are even shoving the ankh rather unceremoniously up the noses of the blessed, a figurative assertion, no doubt, that the sun offers the "breath of life." (Got the quote from here:- 1320: Section 10: Akhenaten and Monotheism)

However we know very little about the religion unfortunately.

Threads also made me think of the Fates: Moirai - Wikipedia

Which again isn't quite what your going for, but could be interesting?

 

[HareBrain]

That page on the Fates throws up some interesting ideas, e.g. that God himself might be subordinate to them, a puppet pulling the strings of others. (Maybe Fate is the one that spins the thread used as the strings.)

 

[Venusian Broon]

A mention of puppets with regard to a rather famous cave:

Religion and Spirituality: Plato and His Puppets

 

[Venusian Broon]

Bear with me ....what about the Dionysian Mysteries? (Dionysian Mysteries - Wikipedia)

Spirit possession involved liberation from civilization's rules and constraints. It celebrated that which was outside civilized society and a return to primordial nature—which would later assume mystical overtones. It also involved escape from the socialized personality and ego into an ecstatic, deified state or the primal herd (sometimes both). In this sense Dionysus was the beast-god within.

So the god 'drives' you - your deep unconscious - but because you are generally not being in a state of possession you can alter it's motives to 'civilization's rules and constraints' ???

 

[HareBrain]

So the god 'drives' you - your deep unconscious - but because you are generally not being in a state of possession you can alter it's motives to 'civilization's rules and constraints' ???

That's almost the opposite of what I've got, though. In this case the puppeteer god on high would be a kind of super-ego, a supposedly civilising influence. The liberating Dionysian urge you refer to would be feared by most as the corrupting influence of body and emotions.

 

[Vertigo]

If you're thinking along the lines of the Fates I find one of Bernard Cornwell's Uhtred's often revisited conundrums in the Last Kingdom series is quite interesting. And that is to question why, if all our lives are governed by the Fates, do we bother making oaths, since it is not within our power to guarantee we can honour the oaths when all is governed by the Fates.

 

[HareBrain]

Though if all really were governed by the Fates, so would your deciding to make oaths be, surely? Or else you'd get into the quagmire of trying to decide at what level of detail the Fates operate.

I don't expect to make the idea of Fate very central. It's more the imagery and symbolism of the puppet/puppeteer in a religious context.

As an example, I've since remembered that in Riddley Walker, there's a distorted version of Punch and Judy that acts as a kind of post-apocalyptic religious teaching.

I can also imagine that if puppetry were seen as a metaphor for human relationship with God, then puppetry itself, and puppets, might be seen as sacred. Maybe puppets would be seen to have their own "free will", and might, culturally, have licence to act and speak as they "wished" without the puppeteer being punished (e.g. for sedition or satire).

 

[Venusian Broon]

I can also imagine that if puppetry were seen as a metaphor for human relationship with God, then puppetry itself, and puppets, might be seen as sacred.

Or, taking the other side, by using puppets the puppeteer would seen as mimicking God, and therefore the whole act could be seen as the height of blasphemy and religious sedition?

 

[HareBrain]

Or, taking the other side, by using puppets the puppeteer would seen as mimicking God, and therefore the whole act could be seen as the height of blasphemy and religious sedition?

Yep, could be. So why would they take the risk? Maybe because puppetry being sacred would give their messages more power.

Maybe only a kind of priesthood would be sanctioned to perform puppet shows, but others would do so underground.

 

[The Judge]

Hmmm... I recall reading a very good piece where a youth watches a History-Man who does a puppet show that is quasi-religious in both the telling and the fervour of the watching crowd. If only I could think of the author's name...

By "the idea of the relationship between humans and God as being similar to a puppet and its operator" do you mean the actual relationship of a real God to His/Her people, or are you thinking more of the people's limited comprehension of it, or their human-evolved rituals surrounding their religion, whether or not there is a real God? Not that it makes a difference as to what I can help you with, which is minimal, but I'm nosy so I want to know!

Anyhow, I'd heard of puppets being used in South-East Asia to illustrate religion as Aber says. I've found this site which doesn't really add much but mentions puppeteering in the medieval Christian church Free hand shadow puppets at Shadow-Puppets.com I've not myself come across any hint of this in my own reading around medieval issues in the UK, and the site doesn't seem to give any citations for its assertions, so I don't know how true it is (though the etymology of "marionette" as little Mary appears to be correct). Sicily has a history of puppet theatre, but from what I can gather it's mostly folklore and history tales, with a few eg Old Testament stories added to the mix, and it seems more entertainment than instruction, though of course originally the two would have gone hand-in-hand. The Middle Ages and earlier certainly had Miracle and Mystery Plays and pageants, in which clergy took part (at least at first) so it's not too much stretch to have puppets performing instead of people in some places.

Off on another tangent entirely, if you want a different feel of religion from austerity of Highcloud, have you thought about dancing? Or are you still keeping the male-female mind-body split going so you want something less physical and more rational?

 

[Venusian Broon]

What about possession? It feels logical to me that possession could be seen as a form of 'advanced' puppetry, a more direct intervention of the divine spirit or angelic entities - like Voodoo/Vodou.

Of course you already may have some interesting thoughts about this topic ...

 

[HareBrain]

I recall reading a very good piece where a youth watches a History-Man who does a puppet show that is quasi-religious in both the telling and the fervour of the watching crowd. If only I could think of the author's name...

Ha! That never occurred to me.

By "the idea of the relationship between humans and God as being similar to a puppet and its operator" do you mean the actual relationship of a real God to His/Her people, or are you thinking more of the people's limited comprehension of it, or their human-evolved rituals surrounding their religion, whether or not there is a real God?

The second and third rather than the first.

Off on another tangent entirely, if you want a different feel of religion from austerity of Highcloud, have you thought about dancing? Or are you still keeping the male-female mind-body split going so you want something less physical and more rational?

Yes, a different feel from the Empyreum/Highcloud, more mystical and less militaristic. I also think there would be some hangover from the Zhenaii civilisation, which was in the same area and whose refugees would have come here, and the Zhenaii also had a religion based on dramatic performances, though these were using transformed humans rather than puppets. So I thought the puppets could be a derivation of the same tradition but in a form that didn't invite divine wrath.

Dancing is a good idea, though. Probably more formalised rather than Dionysian ecstasy. Maybe I could get that in too somewhere.

 

[Montero]

Had one thought on this thread - cutting the strings of the puppet. The strings support the puppet, so when you cut them the puppet falls down and stops moving. So would it be an analogy for freedom or for death?
If the latter, then by implication there is no afterlife as the god has no connections to the person.
Unless the strings are the equivalent of soul and go back to the god on death.

(I also had thoughts about glove puppets and the whole possibility for vulgarity of the King Harold Was A Ventriloquist - Les Barker type.)

 

[Danny McG]

I saw this thread and thought it was going to be about Punch and Judy.
I've saw it maybe half a dozen times over the years at various seaside venues.
The Devil always appears at some point and Mr Punch has a battle with him