History for Fantasy Writers

I'm a bit confused. It is interesting, and I did not know the difference between lifespan and "average age of death." However, your definition leaves me baffled as to whether "lifespan" has any use as a phrase. It means the amount of time someone can expect to live outside of defects, disease, etc. but when are we ever free of those? There's always the possibility of disease, although the consequences are rather muted in the developed world.

You then say that this has almost no bearing on us as writers. Why would you say that? I think if one wants to write super accurate medieval periods, they need to talk about diseases, bad sanitation, backwards notions and "common sense," and yes, shorted lifespans and average ages of death.
 
DelActivisto said:
You then say that this has almost no bearing on us as writers. Why would you say that? I think if one wants to write super accurate medieval periods, they need to talk about diseases, bad sanitation, backwards notions and "common sense," and yes, shorted lifespans and average ages of death.
Click to expand...
But your characters won't be talking about average ages of death. They'll know that infant mortality is high, but that's irrelevant because they will be thinking of how long people can expect to live once they pass adolescence. They'll see a man of 35-40 who dies as being cut down in the prime of life, just as we would, and one who reaches 70+ as having had a good long life.

As I've argued before here on Chrons, though, I suspect that they'd look at women very differently. The chance of a woman dying in childbirth was very high, and many women were pregnant on a regular basis, so a women dying in her 20s or 30s is still going to be wrenching for those around her, but perhaps not so much of a shock. More importantly, I'm pretty sure that a woman the wrong side of 40, and certainly one over 50, would be thought of as old while a man of the same age was still considered as only just past his prime. (Yeah, plus ça change.)
 
The Judge said:
But your characters won't be talking about average ages of death. They'll know that infant mortality is high, but that's irrelevant because they will be thinking of how long people can expect to live once they pass adolescence. They'll see a man of 35-40 who dies as being cut down in the prime of life, just as we would, and one who reaches 70+ as having had a good long life.

As I've argued before here on Chrons, though, I suspect that they'd look at women very differently. The chance of a woman dying in childbirth was very high, and many women were pregnant on a regular basis, so a women dying in her 20s or 30s is still going to be wrenching for those around her, but perhaps not so much of a shock. More importantly, I'm pretty sure that a woman the wrong side of 40, and certainly one over 50, would be thought of as old while a man of the same age was still considered as only just past his prime. (Yeah, plus ça change.)
Click to expand...

True, women have a much harder time of things as it is, nonwithstanding the more brutal environments of the old ages. Giving birth is a great way to get an infection and die in unsanitary conditions, which I'm well familiar with as a former farmer.

But I think the main point here is that it's good to keep in mind the vastly skewed interpretations that can result from reading the stats. Let's say the average life expectancy was 35; but that's because half the population dies at birth and the other half lives to be 70.

Life expectancy - Wikipedia
 
I don't know:
It just seems like saying; the life expectancy of man is forever or undefinable or infinite; if it weren't for all those nasty things that keep cropping up and getting in the way of immortality.

You may also benefit from looking here.

Life table - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:
As near as we can tell, DelActivisto, perceptions were more or less the same for men and women as far as just age itself goes. But of course people rarely view each other without regard to gender. Men were judged by what you might expect: vigor, gray hair, experience. For women, marriage as the key; specifically marriageability. If a woman was of child-bearing age, then she was still more or less in the category of mature. Grown-up. Not-yet-old. Once she got past that, and this was very much not a hard line, then she might still be a desirable match but only if she brought position or money (e.g., the widow of a guildsman or nobleman). I don't know of any evidence that a man's age was judged in reproductive terms.

I agree that lifespan is a fuzzy word. Demographers agree with you as well, which is why they speak of average age at death. At the same time, it is reasonable to talk about how long humans can expect to live absent violent death or disease. People do "die of old age" -- another fuzzy term that encompasses any number of ways to die associated with general systems failure, mainly the heart. Demographers have a somewhat different way of looking at this than does a coroner.

In parish registers I remember seeing a common cause of death listed for small children that baffled me. The cause was listed as teething. How could anyone die of teething? They actually died of fever, brought on by or associated with teething. For the historical demographer, teething will do, but that's not the proper medical cause of death.

I'm not sure that I've not muddied the waters further. It's late and I probably ought to stop typing.
 
Another enjoyable little article, thank you. (By the way, I think you have a "gang" where you mean "guild" at one point, after you're talking of the unlikelihood of eg assassins having guilds.)

I've not brought guilds into any of my work thus far, save for a brief show-fair put on for visiting dignitaries and a mention of a sculoa dedicated to singing in one story, and talk of a merchants' guild in another. I can definitely see a good story line emerging from the tensions inherent in the guild relationships, though; between masters and journeymen on the one hand, and the masters among themselves on the other, not to mention the incursion of newcomers with skills but no accreditation wanting work and selling services cheaply and the local population after a bargain. Not epic fantasy, perhaps, but none the worse for that.
 
I've always liked the idea of a guild of thieves: "I'd like to call this meeting to order... right, which one of you stole my gavel? And my agenda?"
 
@Toby Frost: *chortle*
The social aspects of medieval guilds could provide some interesting angles. What happens when a thief gets to old for thievery? Or too sick? Do members of the thieves guild visit those in prison and take care of their families betimes? The same questions could be asked of magicians.

I think there's potential in a story about an aged magician. Not the wise old Gandalf type, who is never really old, but the kind who can't pull off spells the way he used to do. Or is suffering from dementia. The genuinely difficult aspects of being old. Maybe the wizard has kept himself up by magic for some years but now is falling apart. Or maybe the Wizard Guild has to decide when an old and revered master needs to retire because he's doing more harm than good.

I tend to see more story possibilities when we step down off the epic stage onto the streets of the ordinary, but taking with us the characters and tropes of the extraordinary.
 
@The Judge: if you mean this passage

The first thing that comes to mind for me is all the fantasy guilds that to me just don’t work as guilds. I don’t buy an assassins guild, a thieves guild, a fighters guild. It doesn’t make sense. A gang, a secret society, a professional association, sure. But not a gang.

then I did indeed mean gang. I can see a gang of assassins, a gang of thieves, but not a guild of those. That's because I have too strong a sense of what a medieval guild was, and that irrevocably colors how I read the word in fantasy. Most of the time I can let it slide, but I sort of have to make a conscious effort to tell my inner historian to sit down and be quiet.

Thanks for the comments!
 
sknox said:
@The Judge: if you mean this passage

The first thing that comes to mind for me is all the fantasy guilds that to me just don’t work as guilds. I don’t buy an assassins guild, a thieves guild, a fighters guild. It doesn’t make sense. A gang, a secret society, a professional association, sure. But not a gang.

then I did indeed mean gang. I can see a gang of assassins, a gang of thieves, but not a guild of those. That's because I have too strong a sense of what a medieval guild was, and that irrevocably colors how I read the word in fantasy. Most of the time I can let it slide, but I sort of have to make a conscious effort to tell my inner historian to sit down and be quiet.
Click to expand...
Oh yes, I fully agree with you. It's just as I read that paragraph, the bit I've highlighted didn't seem to make sense -- it's that sentence which I thought should read "But not a guild".

Anyhow, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the merchants' guilds. I've vague memories of having to learn about the Hanseatic League, if that comes under the guild umbrella, but I've forgotten practically everything about it!
 
The Judge said:
Anyhow, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the merchants' guilds. I've vague memories of having to learn about the Hanseatic League, if that comes under the guild umbrella, but I've forgotten practically everything about it!
Click to expand...

Ah the federated alliance of civic leagues that encompassed Northern Europe, formed on the basis of protecting trade routes and trade concessions. (I've just finished a very detailed book on the Holy Roman Empire :))

I always think of guilds in the form of artisan and traders' associations - say stone masons or fish-sellers - but I suppose the Hanseatic League was a massive corporate version of a 'simple' merchant guild. Just one that could barter with the Emperor and other nations.
 
sknox said:
I can see a gang of assassins, a gang of thieves, but not a guild of those. That's because I have too strong a sense of what a medieval guild was, and that irrevocably colors how I read the word in fantasy.
Click to expand...

Fritz Leiber has a lot to answer for.
 
Tru dat, M. Turner.

Before I switched to the guilds of Augsburg, my dissertation was going to be on the Hanseatic League. Right up until I realized that I would have to learn Polish, Russian and Swedish, on top of the Latin, German and French I was already studying. ... I blinked.

The Hansa was not a guild but was, as the Venusian Broon says, a league of cities designed to protect their merchants.

@The Judge: augh. You're right. Never noticed that, not even when quoting myself! I'm going to let it stand rather than make the very nice mod at Mythic Scribes update the file. Kids, beware of those sentence fragments! :)
 
The Big Peat said:
Oi! I thought you were going to write one about medieval attitudes to childhood? :p
Click to expand...

By and by, by and by. It's my futile swing at repairing the damage done by Philippe Ariès book, Centuries of Childhood.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Extollager Veteran Readers: From SF and Fantasy to History and Biography Book Discussion 18
sknox History and Fantasy Writing Discussion 30
nightdreamer Fantasy quest, split history, kids in tow Book Search 2
R Creating fantasy worlds using actual history. Writing Discussion 12
DarrellR Too Much History, Not Enough Fantasy? Book Discussion 15

Similar threads


Back
Top