Scene breaks vs Chapters

[Brian G Turner]

I'm beginning to think I've misunderstood something about the difference between scene breaks and chapter breaks...

In Gathering I broke up POV scenes into chapters. I felt that it helped with a sense of pace, and clarity in terms of the character focus for that scene.

However, earlier last year - while reading Conn Iggulden's series about Genghis Khan - I noticed how seamlessly he was able to weave additional POV characters into his chapters.

When I think of other books with many POVs - such as The Dragonlance Chronicles, which has at least 11 main characters; and The DaVinci Code, which has 11 POV's - mixing them up into chapters emphasizes their connection and makes for smooth reading.

Whereas by separating them into standalone chapters for Gathering, I fear I've simply emphasized the size of the cast.

Additionally, I noticed a problem start to arise in the sequel - which takes place over a much longer time frame - that standalone POV scenes did not easily convey their separation in time.

I was already thinking of refreshing Gathering with a new cover and cleaned-up prologue, but I've also now formatted a version with all the scene breaks brought together in groups and enclosed as chapters. I'm already finding it helps with a sense of time passing...

Someone may argue that such changes aren't necessary, and maybe they're right - but I can't help but think that I've profoundly misunderstood the difference between scene breaks and chapters, and that done wrong - or for reasons with the wrong emphasis - works against the interests of the writer as well as reader.

I'm thinking aloud here.

 

[Biskit]

I've always thought of these breaks as really big punctuation marks - a hint that something significant has changed - but the way I use them is dictated by the logic/flow of the narrative. I have a rambling multiple 1st pov space-opera, and there I make the chapter breaks the shift between pov, but I suspect without that (and a chapter heading that is the character name) it would be even more bewildering than it already is. With 3rd, I tend to put in a chapter break for a major change of something, but I wouldn't do it just for a pov shift if it was the same train of action but moving to a different view on that action.

It sounds like you might need a different style of scene/chapter breaks in the two books to fit in with the nature of the story and the relative timescales. I find long time jumps a tricky thing to do, but then my stories tend to be on quite compact timescales.

Of course. there's always the chapter break at the peak of the action just so the reader gets to take a breath. Or scream in their head at the author for messing around.

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, this is where you need the external feedback. I've certainly stared at stuff I was sure was wrong, when it was fine, only to miss the things that really were wrong. The Biskitetta generally sets me straight.

 

[The Judge]

Well, I don't want to say I told you so, but... Admittedly I was coming at it from a different perspective, but I do think ditching the one-POV-one-chapter rule could be of real benefit.

For myself, in my multi-POV WiPs, I've always been happy to put scenes from different POVs into one chapter, though I make sure they are linked in some way, even if it is only by time, and often in my SFs I'd echo the end of one scene in the beginning of the next, to create a unified whole.

 

[Steve Harrison]

It's a very interesting subject.

I always limit each chapter to one POV character (I use multiple POVs in all my work - 26 of them in my published novel!) principally because that is also my reading preference and I find this method easier for my readers to follow. My WIP only has half a dozen POV characters and I can see passages/chapters that might benefit from including more than one POV, but I'm going to stay in my writing comfort zone.

I would only consider using that method if I wrote chapters of the same length, but that's not the way I write. At the moment, anyway...

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think they are different things - and that sff' adherence to single point of views makes us poorer writers, new.

The chapter is the segment of the story I want to tell. Often a single POV will tell it - but not always. My favourite writers rarely get wound up about single POVs and I try not to. If I have to shift, I will use a scene break in chapter - but in every other genre I'd just shift naturally. One of these days I will write a proper shifting 3rd sff book and stun the genre (possibly with my cackhandedness but you have to take things were you find it!)

 

[Shorewalker]

My first book uses four POV characters...three main and one secondary. Only the first three chapters are solely seen from one character's POV, the rest alternate between the three main. I use a few loose rules...

One scene means one POV, regardless of how many POV characters might be involved in that scene.

Scene change means either the passage of time, or a change of POV.

The changes between POVs do not follow a pattern...1,2,3,1,2,3...but are placed in respect to how they occur in real time. That might mean that we go a couple of chapters before we return to a particular character, but it seems to work.

A new chapter is determined by the end of the preceding chapter, that is to say, I always try to end a chapter on a definitive note...a cliffhanger, a sub-plot conclusion, a momentous decision, a portentious occurance.

Not certain if any of that helps, but it works for me.

 

[Toby Frost]

I think it depends on the number of POV characters and the distinctiveness of how they look at the world. When I wrote the fantasy novel (as yet unpublished, I should add, so make of this what you will) I deliberately made each POV character different: a young girl, a man of about 30, a woman in her forties and an old man*. Each of them had a seperate adventure, told by chapter, but when they got together, each chapter was quite different in outlook although the same story was now being told.

I think the effect and desirability of using different chapters for different voices also varies between stories, writers and styles, so I'd go for the unhelpful but honest answer of "do whatever works". What does the story require to flow smoothly and clearly, and is anything gained from having a lot of character viewpoints, especially if it's a story with an "adventuring party" where everyone is together for most of the time? What suits you better - because chances are, that will suit the story and hence the readers? I suspect that the "one chapter per viewpoint" approach is something of a fad that started in imitation of George RR Martin, and it may change in the future. Certainly, neither approach is incorrect.

Also, is the best thing to revisit Gathering or move on with new work? I'm asking this in a purely neutral way, not to suggest that you're doing anything wrong.

*Random aside:a while ago, I read an interview with a comic book artist, who said that each superhero in a team should be recognisable in silhouette. I'm not sure what the exact writing equivalent is, but I like the idea. Voice, perhaps?

 

[Steve Harrison]

I think it depends on the number of POV characters and the distinctiveness of how they look at the world. When I wrote the fantasy novel (as yet unpublished, I should add, so make of this what you will) I deliberately made each POV character different: a young girl, a man of about 30, a woman in her forties and an old man*. Each of them had a seperate adventure, told by chapter, but when they got together, each chapter was quite different in outlook although the same story was now being told.

I find that using multiple POVs, particularly within a group, is a fantastic way of developing well-rounded characters in a fast-moving story without slowing the pace, because each character has a very different and distinct view of themselves and their companions. It's a lot of fun to write that way, too.

And regarding George RR Martin; I wrote the first draft of my novel many years before reading Game of Thrones and at first assumed he'd copied me and then realised it was simply a case of great minds thinking alike

 

[Elventine]

I have to admit that I am not sure about how to use them myself - I have tried in my latest WIP and it just sort of feels and looks weird. Don't know if that is just me or if I am doing something wrong. If I ask Google what to use one for it tells me everything but nothing much AKA mostly used to signal a sh*t in time or POV.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Interesting and timely question, Boss.

I have between 2 - 3 POVs in each of my eras, but I'd always decided to combine them (POV and eras) to make chapters. However, I have been approaching the writing in a somewhat unusual way in that I've been writing each time period by itself and will then combine them when all is finished for draft 1. I believe - with all the POVs written, I can then take a step back and rearange the scenes (between parties and eras) to form the chapters.

To that end, Scrivener's Index Card and Cork Board feature will be indispensible; Each index card has a short title and synopsis of the scene, so you can shuffle them around into an order you're happy with. It also has the Collections feature where you can group similar 'whatevers' together and read/edit them sequentially.

I think you use Word to write, but wonder if it might help you with this to migrate to Scrivener so these features can help your dilemma.

I've attached a screen grab of the 1347 section (when I come to compile the story in its entirety, I'd have all eras selected, but this does for the example I want to show you); you can see the index cards on the cork board which can be dragged around and re-ordered. I've given each POV a colour which is on the corner of each card and I've also created collections for those POVs which can be seen on the left hand side in their relevant POV colours - this one also includes Lady Selwyn's Journals & Gilbert though, which are from different eras; all collections get listed regardless of folder selected.)

Hope this makes sense.

pH

 

[Brian G Turner]

Yep, just reading Promise of Blood by Brian McClellan and he puts together multiple POV scenes into a single chapter.

Making the change to Gathering I don't think will cause any problems, and will definitely help with future books - especially with the passage of time - therefore better to be consistent.

 

[tinkerdan]

In my first book I was experimenting with POV using first person for the main character and then(perhaps some might feel I cheated)using third person POV characters for more information they couldn't know.

To do this at first I had all sorts of scene breaks and mix of POV in all chapters. However for sanity in this experiment I ended up putting all first person POV in their own chapters and only mixing several POV in the third person chapters.

That, however, broke up some of the continuity partially because I had such long chapters, which leads to why I've been considering re-engineering the first novel to make many more smaller chapters and restore continuity.

There was one more thing that I did in several places near the end that worked, but was a bit of deception, where a chapter had what sounded like third person omniscient that turns out to be the first person character observing the scene for a period of time before they reveal that they are there watching.

And one more thing: definitely put in scene breaks when there is a gap in time. I just read an eBook offering that lost or didn't have them and there was no way to tell how the character got from the shower to the bridge so quickly without embarrassing herself.

 

[janeoreilly]

IMO there's no one way to make this work. It depends on so many things - how many POV's you have, how much 'story' each character gets, timing, if you actually want the reader inside that character's head, where the story is taking place, what the story arcs are. As a general rule a chapter needs to end in such a way that the reader wants to keep reading, which is why editors tell you not to end a chapter with a character going to sleep, but I've even seen this be made to work. We are also regularly told that it has to be one POV per scene and not to head hop, but again this is something that some writers can make work. I do mix POVs within a chapter but tend to start with early drafts with one POV per chapter. I find that this means that I often expand a scene to chapter length and when I cut it back as I rewrite the book I can then combine the reduced scenes. The book I have out in June has multiple POVs, but the story is tied to three distinct locations so I wrote it as three separate story arcs. Each chapter follows only one story thread, and therefore only the POVs of the characters in that particular thread.

There is a book called Scene and Sequel by Deb Dixon which goes through all this in some detail which might be useful.

 

[tinkerdan]

Was not able to find this book::

There is a book called Scene and Sequel by Deb Dixon which goes through all this in some detail which might be useful.

::found the following

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EYUHVK/?tag=id2100-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A6GOHM4/?tag=id2100-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1682229076/?tag=id2100-20

 

[janeoreilly]

Was not able to find this book::

::found the following

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EYUHVK/?tag=id2100-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A6GOHM4/?tag=id2100-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1682229076/?tag=id2100-20

You'll have to excuse me, I checked my shelf and somehow managed to mangle the title and put it with the wrong author (doh)

The book is Scene and Structure by Jack Bickham. Dixon wrote a book called GMC (goal, motivation, conflict) which is on a completely different topic but is also worth a read.

 

[Ursa major]

Additionally, I noticed a problem start to arise in the sequel - which takes place over a much longer time frame - that standalone POV scenes did not easily convey their separation in time.

I seem to recall GRRM mentioning that readers should be aware that the order of events in his ASoIaF books did not necessarily represent the order in which they happened.

As a sort of an aside.... Now that, via DVDs, I've caught up with Game of Thrones, I've been wondering if this hasn't helped that show's show runners to play a bit too fast and loose with time, in that sometimes it can take an age moving a short distance in Westeros and sometimes travel (including by ship) can seem almost instantaneous. Why I noticed this is not because these things pulled me out of the story -- although reading comments when the episodes were first broadcast suggested that many people were pulled out by this sort of thing -- but that I found that I wasn't that bothered, having been "innoculated" by reading books where events were not always shown in the "right" order. (The show runners may have similarly been "innoculated", whereas most of the viewers won't have been.)

GRRM has continued with his one chapter, one PoV, all through the series. By doing so, he has given himself a big advantage: that of unleashing surprises on the reader, ones that would simply not be possible if the events in the books were in strict time order (particularly because travel takes so much time over the vast distances involved). And surprising the reader is a big part of the enjoyment readers get from the series (which is why certain characters never have their PoV revealed, as they know too much about what is really going on).

Given this, you might want to consider if changing how you divide PoVs across chapters might undermine other things you may want to do as your series progresses. In Gathering, it may not have been much of an issue (if I recall correctly), as the events -- the described events -- were not, as they are in ASoIaF, constantly spread out over a wide geographical area.

Personally, I write chapters with one or more PoVs, as my chapters are based on time (days or parts of days). And while the distances involved are vast, this is not a particular issue (unless I need it to be...), because of the means of transport available. However, if I were writing ASoIaF, I think I'd use GRRM's way of organising his PoVs, as it suits the story he's telling.

 

[Nick B]

We use a lot of pov characters and change pov frequently. Often many times in a chapter. We haven't had any complaints about it in any way, so it must be clear what is happening. I think as long as you have strong signals that a pov has changed, such as a line break, or symbol, then it carries perfectly well.
I see chapter breaks more as a ace where the reader can conveniently stop reading, and able to pick the book back up a day later and not have to re-read anything.
We did consider the Pratchet way of simply not having chapters, but decided our idea of convenient pause points worked for us. I certainly don't think we need to worry how many pov's, or how long a chapter is. It's basically a strong scene break.

 

[crystal haven]

I've two pov characters, both first person, and in parts they occupy the same chapter. I have read books where each character has a different chapter, even a one page chapter for one character, but it did make me focus on the chapter breaks and the new character, not a seamless transition. It can make it a bit choppy. I suppose it depends on how it's done, how it fits the story.

 

[Bagpuss]

I always limit each chapter to one POV character (I use multiple POVs in all my work - 26 of them in my published novel!)

@Steve Harrison - I have 2 questions about your published novel:

1. How many chapters are in it? and

2. What is (approximately) its word count?

I'm not trying to trip you up. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Steve Harrison]

@Steve Harrison - I have 2 questions about your published novel:

1. How many chapters are in it? and
2. What is (approximately) its word count?

I'm not trying to trip you up. I'm genuinely curious.

1. I don't know and would have to count them. I didn't use numbers, just character names for each chapter/section. The lengths of these varied from as little as half a page up to about 30 pages, so there are lots! (There's a free preview on Amazon - TIMESTORM - if that doesn't make sense)

2. 104,000 words. 360 pages in the paperback version.