Are Fantasy stories just modern Fairy Tales?

[Brian G Turner]

Something I've been ruminating on - but have yet to come to any conclusion about - is the clear connection between fantasy fiction and fairy stories.

A lot of the old tropes familiar from fairy tales exist in fantasy literature, but what I'm not sure about is whether fantasy is simply paying homage to them - or reinventing them.

And just as a guide, here's a random teaching page online for studying the common tropes of fairy tales: The Elements of a Fairy Tale

Common motifs ~

· Talking animals / objects
· Cleverness / trickster / word games
· Traveler’s tales
· Origins ~ where do we come from?
· Triumph of the poor
· Human weakness explored (i.e., curiosity, gluttony, pride, laziness, etc.)
· Human strengths glorified (i.e., kindness, generosity, patience, etc.)
· Trickster (sometimes a hero, sometimes on the side of evil but humans benefit)
· Tall story (slight exaggeration – hyperbole)
· Magic words or phrases; repetition of phrases/words (abracadabra!)
· Guardians (fairy godmothers, mentors, magical helpers, guides, etc.)
· Monsters (dragons, ogres, evil creatures, etc.)
· Struggle between good and evil, light and dark
· Youngest vs. Oldest (sons, daughters, sibling rivalry)
· Sleep (extended sleep, death-like trances)
· Impossible tasks (ridiculously mind-numbing, fantastic effort needed to complete, etc.)
· Quests
· Gluttony / Starvation (there’s a fine line between eating for survival and succumbing to temptation)
· Keys, passes (opening new doors)
· Donors, Benefactors, Helpers

Just something for discussion.

 

[Overread]

The line between fairy stories and fantasy is, well, I never really thought there was a line!

That is to say to my thinking they are one and the same with fairy stories being a subset of fantasy with its own set of common tropes and such which sets it apart much like epic or such would have. So nothing set in stone nor anything all encompassing, but a series of traits that add up to an overall effect and feel.

Of course most of the fairy stories I was exposed too were the Disney style fairy stories rather than the original Brothers Grimm style. Then again the other week I got a copy of those early stories and started reading them and one thing stood out - they were very very simple. Even some of the simple rewrites, which leave parts out, are almost a touch more detailed in some areas; or expand upon themes. The Disney films actually stand out as bulking and padding them out quite significantly and its clear how the musical elements were used to greatly help pad the film length.



So I'd say there are themes and common elements to fairy stories but they are fantasy, with perhaps the distinction that many are older stories from times past so have a degree of age attached to them.



I'd say a more interesting if perhaps debatable point would be the line when myth becomes fairy and fantasy. Keeping in mind myth is religion and thus its looking at the line between fantasy and religion!

 

[J Riff]

Oh yuss... terrifically violent, fairytales are. Get plague, get eaten by dragons, fall off the wall, break head. Fantasy is pleasant in comparison. * )

 

[CTRandall]

Not just fantasy. Sci-fi often works like an updated version of fairy tales, as well. Stories like Harry Potter and Star Wars have become absorbed into our culture to the poimt that even people who haven't seen/read them understand broad references to the stories. There's a scene in the film Reign of Fire where the adults are acting out a bedtime story for a bunch of kids. The scene is Darth Vader telling Luke "I am your father." The script writer got that scene right. I can see that happening for many years into the future.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

A lot of speculative fiction draws heavily on fairy tale motifs. There are also a lot of resemblances to soap opera.

 

[The Big Peat]

They're not just fairy tales. There's a lot of Mythic Epic, Alt History and Soap Opera (thanks Teresa) in there, among other things.

But yeah, those additional influences aside, its pretty easy to see the clear line of evolution.

 

[Harpo]

I'd leave out the word "modern", since many fantasy stories pre-date many fairy stories. For example, the Grimm brothers & Hans Christian Andersen were writing in the 19th century, long after Sinbad & Aladdin had been added to the even older "Arabian Nights".

Better perhaps to classify them as different sub genres of "folktales"

 

[Toby Frost]

Interesting one. I get the feeling that, apart from books like The Bloody Chamber which consciously riff off fairy tales, the main influences on fantasy as a genre have been Tolkien, D&D and other fantasy novels. One of the things I've not liked about traditional fantasy has been its genericness and the lack of what feels like a solid background. I think this comes from only looking to the genre itself for inspiration. This has changed somewhat in recent years, but the point still stands.

The other thing is that fairy stories are usually quite limited in scope - even when it's a prince or princess, the central cast is small and there are no battle scenes - and finite in nature. I think Teresa makes a good point about soap opera. Any story, dragged out for long enough, starts to look like soap opera, and fantasy is not known for its brevity.

 

[awesomesauce]

I think fairy tales need to be put in context though. If you're talking about a story about child-eating witches that comes from a time when people were actually burning other people as witches, it's a lot harder clearly identify it as a fantasy story. Most of us think so now, because we (well, many of us) know witches aren't real. Did the people who made it up think it was a fantasy, or were they communicating about a real-to-them horror?

I know people who believe, in all sincerity, in "the little people". To them, stories about trolls and leprechauns may be old stories, but they're about a real thing. Beyond fairy tales, we have these ancient, epic stories about gods and mortals and prophecies and chosen heroes. Is it still fantasy if the people who made it up believed it? Is it fantasy if people still believe it?

George R.R. Martin obviously doesn't believe in Westeros or dragons, so maybe it's homage. Or maybe it's just using common cultural elements and references as a kind of shorthand. He doesn't have to make up a world from scratch, he can draw on perceptions of existing history and cultures. He doesn't have to make up a thing to fill the role of dragons and then explain it because we already have an idea about things like dragons that he can use.

 

[Onyx]

Could they be functionally different? While both are certainly entertainment, fairy tales may have had a more functional role in enforcing norms, inspiring bravery, presenting allegory, increasing loyalty to the royal family or discouraging risk taking in children. Modern fantasy is more escapism for people that are getting their aggression and adventurism out vicariously instead of taking up a quest, or a sword.

 

[Amberlen]

I agree Onyx! To me Fairy Tales are much simpler and direct/purposeful in communicating their intended message...whereas Fantasy allows an almost limitless pursuit of adventure, with no boundaries.

hello to all , btw. new and this is my first post!

 

[Brian G Turner]

hello to all , btw. new and this is my first post!

Hi @Amberlen and welcome to the chrons forums.

 

[Amberlen]

Hi @Amberlen and welcome to the chrons forums.

howdy @Brian G Turner and thanks

 

[BAYLOR]

What about heroic fantasy ? That part of the genre doesn't quite seem to fit into the fairly tale comparison . I don't see in Robert E. Howard's Conan the Barbarian stories or Karl Edward Wagner's Kane the Mystic Swordsman stories for example.

 

[Amberlen]

Agreed @BAYLOR I think that’s why they have to be separated. I think there is an obvious overlap at times, but still distinct differences

 

[Onyx]

It really depends on how you decide to define a fairy tale. Beowulf or the Knights of the Round Table might be a fairy tales, and are also heroic fantasy.

 

[Alexa]

Could they be functionally different? While both are certainly entertainment, fairy tales may have had a more functional role in enforcing norms, inspiring bravery, presenting allegory, increasing loyalty to the royal family or discouraging risk taking in children. Modern fantasy is more escapism for people that are getting their aggression and adventurism out vicariously instead of taking up a quest, or a sword.

A quest is expensive and a sword is expensive and heavy. No wonders why I prefer reading a fantasy book instead.

Fairy tales are for kids and fantasy books for adults ? Perhaps those who enjoy fantasy books are still kids in their souls who don't want to grow up ?

 

[Onyx]

Fairy tales are for kids and fantasy books for adults ?

I don't know if that is true. Fairy tales (King Arthur) could be very interesting for adults, and tons of children's literature is fantasy. I would draw the line at whether they are inspirational vs. escapist rather than by audience age.

 

[Alexa]

Is not King Arthur rather a legend than a fairy tale ?

 

[Onyx]

Is not King Arthur rather a legend than a fairy tale ?

Dunno. What isn't a fairy tale?