Plagiarism, and Dragon Tattoo Question?

[JoanDrake]

Can anyone tell me how the "Millenium" series has avoided being sued for plagiarism by Astrid Lindgen? The late Stieg Larsson has come right out and said that he derived the character of Lisbeth Salander from Lindgren's "Pippi Longstocking, which makes it a 'derivative work" and thus illegal, at least to my definitely not a lawyer mind, and also does anyone think that Lee Child's Jack Reacher might be the same thing with Paul Bunyan? (to those who might have only heard of the movie. in the books Jack Reacher is physically huge and he keeps in shape by digging regulation size swimming pools for people, with just a shovel, no power equipment, Tom Cruise is apparently no friend of writer's who want their books depicted accurately)

 

[awesomesauce]

It's not illegal to be inspired by prior art. (If it were, all of human culture would have to go to jail! )

Plagiarism is specifically "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own." (Google) Also, plagiarism itself, while unethical, is not illegal. There are protections like patent and copyright and trademark that make certain kinds of copying illegal under specific circumstances.

I don't think any reasonable person could read both Pippi Longstocking and the Millenium books and claim Stieg Larsson copied Astrid Lindgren. I do think that accusations of plagiarism because a creator acknowledges their sources of inspiration are one of the reason creators don't acknowledge their influences and pretend their ideas spring instead from whole cloth.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Can anyone tell me how the "Millenium" series has avoided being sued for plagiarism by Astrid Lindgen? The late Stieg Larsson has come right out and said that he derived the character of Lisbeth Salander from Lindgren's "Pippi Longstocking, which makes it a 'derivative work" and thus illegal, at least to my definitely not a lawyer mind, and also does anyone think that Lee Child's Jack Reacher might be the same thing with Paul Bunyan? (to those who might have only heard of the movie. in the books Jack Reacher is physically huge and he keeps in shape by digging regulation size swimming pools for people, with just a shovel, no power equipment, Tom Cruise is apparently no friend of writer's who want their books depicted accurately)

I think you've got your wires crossed here - Pippi Longstocking is a story about a quirky child with superhuman strength, whereas The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is about a vulnerable young woman with autism trying to escape the social abuse inherent in the system.

Additionally, Lee Child's Jack Reacher character worked on a single swimming pool in a single novel beginning, but I don't believe he ever has since in the books.

 

[The Big Peat]

A better legal mind than me (not hard) would be needed for the ins and outs, but awesomesauce is correct. Its not illegal to create a work with ideas clearly influenced by and derived from other authors. There's a very long list of authors who would be in trouble if that was the case.

It starts being a crime when there is an attempt to pass off someone else's work exactly as they did it as your own.

 

[awesomesauce]

I think you've got your wires crossed here - Pippi Longstocking is a story about a quirky child with superhuman strength, whereas The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is about a vulnerable young woman with autism trying to escape the social abuse inherent in the system.

I could see Salander being inspired by Pippi if you said to yourself, what would someone like Pippi be if she grew up in this dark, gritty, contemporary noir situation? How would she handle things?

They're both orphans; they live unconventional lives outside society. Neither of them care very much what other people think. Pippi lives by herself in Villa Villekulla and only has Tommy and Annika as friends. Salander has Mikael. Both have difficulty with social and behavioral norms. Pippi has superhuman physical strength, Salander has superhuman mental strength. I can see where there are some character parallels; these similarities aren't even close to plagiarism, however.

 

[Plucky Novice]

On a more general point, how much do people worry about allegations of plagiarism?

As a first time author the prospect of being accused of copying the ideas of others haunts me. I am forever googling to check my ideas haven't been used before but this only really works with names.

When it comes to plot and scenes I only have my own experience to fall back on. What have I read and seen that is like my story? I avoid or try to substantially differentiate from these.

Do others worry about this?

 

[The Big Peat]

On a more general point, how much do people worry about allegations of plagiarism?

As a first time author the prospect of being accused of copying the ideas of others haunts me. I am forever googling to check my ideas haven't been used before but this only really works with names.

When it comes to plot and scenes I only have my own experience to fall back on. What have I read and seen that is like my story? I avoid or try to substantially differentiate from these.

Do others worry about this?

Occasionally, but I have mostly educated myself to not care. It is incredibly hard to come up with something that doesn't echo or mirror other ideas and, as such, I think its better to just plough on with what you've got.

Sure, sometimes an idea really is far too similar for its own good... I've got one project on the sideburner because it basically is The Witcher, but there's a ton of really good books that are basically X.

And, increasingly, I deliberately make small homages.

 

[awesomesauce]

Sure, sometimes an idea really is far too similar for its own good... I've got one project on the sideburner because it basically is The Witcher, but there's a ton of really good books that are basically X.

Funny you should mention Witcher. Moorcock filed a suit against Sapkowski, despite never having read the books, because some people told him Geralt was plagiarised from Elric. The basis for the accusation seems to be because they're both albino fantasy heroes with swords. (There are some moderately interesting internet takedowns of the accusation explaining why this is bollocks.)

 

[The Big Peat]

Funny you should mention Witcher. Moorcock filed a suit against Sapkowski, despite never having read the books, because some people told him Geralt was plagiarised from Elric. The basis for the accusation seems to be because they're both albino fantasy heroes with swords. (There are some moderately interesting internet takedowns of the accusation explaining why this is bollocks.)

Moorcock sounds a little tetchy about this stuff. Also had a go at Morrison for his (in fairness very direct and obvious) take on Jerry Cornelius.

I believe Morrison's answer included asking if Moorcock intended to pay royalties to the guys who he took obvious influences from. What goes around comes around. Personally I'd be delighted if people were ever ripping off my characters.

 

[Cathbad]

I had to look up Pippi Longstocking. When I saw it, I had assumed it was as was depicted - a rendering of local legend. I was quite surprised to see it was written mid-20th Century!

 

[Cathbad]

Personally I'd be delighted if people were ever ripping off my characters.

Personally, all my characters are rip-offs of Sergio Aragones characters!

 

[awesomesauce]

Moorcock sounds a little tetchy about this stuff. Also had a go at Morrison for his (in fairness very direct and obvious) take on Jerry Cornelius.

I believe Morrison's answer included asking if Moorcock intended to pay royalties to the guys who he took obvious influences from. What goes around comes around. Personally I'd be delighted if people were ever ripping off my characters.

In the case of Sapkowski, I don't believe he's ever said Moorcock was an influence, and the first Witcher stories were written and published while Poland was still part of the Eastern Bloc, which makes it entirely plausible that Sapkowski had never read anything by Moorcock when he started writing them.

Maybe humans just aren't as original as we think we are.

 

[Parson]

Maybe humans just aren't as original as we think we are.

Sigh! too true and so often proven!

 

[Phyrebrat]

‘Trying’ to be original is a fool’s errand. Just write and be happy is how I approach things.

Concepts, themes and images have been remixed, rebooted and interbred forever and there will be unconscious influences in your work that are informed by your own predilections. For example, I found I’d used the Jamesian phrase ‘Drawn from the life’ in exactly the same way he’d used it, in my wip (intimating the ghoul in question was represented by an artist as if the creature had sat for him. It’s always chilled me as a phrase in its efficacy).

In M R James’ Canon Alberic’s Scrapbook this passage appears:

One remark is universally made by those to whom I have shown the picture: 'It was drawn from the life.'.

1

It’s definitely where I would have got it from but it was so ingrained in me from reading James over and over for years that when I came out I thought it was mine.

I think the acceptable line regarding plagiarism is as outline above by folks such as awesomesauce.

pH

1 Ebooks.adelaide.edu.au. (2018). Ghost Stories of an Antiquary, by M. R. James : Canon Alberic’s Scrap-Book. [online] Available at: Ghost Stories of an Antiquary, by M. R. James : Canon Alberic’s Scrap-Book [Accessed 21 Sep. 2018].

 

[Anthoney]

Lee Child's Jack Reacher might be the same thing with Paul Bunyan?

That would be a stretch. Every big character is not Paul Bunyan.

Additionally, Lee Child's Jack Reacher character worked on a single swimming pool in a single novel beginning, but I don't believe he ever has since in the books.

That's the only pool he dug during book time but he stated that he has dug other pools. He mentioned doing various jobs that have never been put in the books.

 

[Cathbad]

That would be a stretch. Every big character is not Paul Bunyan.

EVERY Hero is Paul Bunyan!!

nyah!

 

[Phyrebrat]

This is how to improve on PB.

 

[tinkerdan]

If one wanted to point out stories and characters that seemed similar I think you should look at
Podkayne of Mars by Robert Heinlein
and
Martians Abroad by Carrie Vaughn

I'm not going to go into the similarities here--because I'd rather have people read them and see for themselves.

I found the similarities quite striking.
Similarities in character's and plot and even a bit of the world--though the building of said world might be different.

Such similarity that I was quite worried for the main female protagonist--considering the way that Heinlein originally had written Podkayne's story. Martians Abroad had me guessing to very close to the end.

 

[JoanDrake]

It's not illegal to be inspired by prior art. (If it were, all of human culture would have to go to jail! )

Plagiarism is specifically "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own." (Google) Also, plagiarism itself, while unethical, is not illegal. There are protections like patent and copyright and trademark that make certain kinds of copying illegal under specific circumstances.

I don't think any reasonable person could read both Pippi Longstocking and the Millenium books and claim Stieg Larsson copied Astrid Lindgren. I do think that accusations of plagiarism because a creator acknowledges their sources of inspiration are one of the reason creators don't acknowledge their influences and pretend their ideas spring instead from whole cloth.

OIC, OK, very helpful, I tend be overly concerned about that as I often read something that inspires me to write something similar