ASOIAF Theory...

[NarkyTheNarkster]

I'm in the process of rereading a clash of kings, and I've just been wondering if anyone else thinks that Syrio Forel and Jaqen H'gar are the same person? I don't have anything to back it up except that Jaqen says that he can change his face as many times as he wants to, and that they are both connected to Arya..

Some other evidence could be that Syrio Forel was dragged into the Black Cells by Ser Mandon Moore, where he changed into Jaqen H'gar just in time to be picked up by Yoren.

Anyone else agree?

 

[Jay]

Yeah this has been discussed for some years and at lengh for some time at the Martin Board. I do agree.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Anyone else agree?

Nah
1) Mandon Moore had no reason to spare his life - he'd just crippled or killed 5 of his men right in front of his eyes and allowed Arya to escape.
2) If Jaqen was Syrio he would have been nicer to Arya and refused to be part of the Mummers Company. Unless schizophrenia comes with the power - in which case Syrio is effectively 'dead' anyway.

shame - loved Syrio's character but lets face it, he's worm-food!

 

[Frey Slayer]

I never thought of that.
I dont know why he would have kept his identity a secret though, there was no reason. I dont think they are the same.

 

[Culhwch]

Nah
1) Mandon Moore had no reason to spare his life - he'd just crippled or killed 5 of his men right in front of his eyes and allowed Arya to escape.
2) If Jaqen was Syrio he would have been nicer to Arya and refused to be part of the Mummers Company. Unless schizophrenia comes with the power - in which case Syrio is effectively 'dead' anyway.

Well, it could have been another of his tests - see if she is good enough to help him even though he seems to be bad... But I think Syrio's dead, too. He didn't seem the kind to surrender meekly, and I think he'd have forced Moore, a cold ******* in any case, to kill him rather than take him alive.

As long as we're talking theories (though when aren't we on this board...) I just finished a read through again and a couple of things are bugging me. Thought I would see what the rest of you guys had to contribute:

1) In the last Arya chapter of ACoK, Roose Bolton is reading a book when Arya comes into his room, which he promptly burns. Any notions as to what it was and what significance it has?
2) What's the deal with the Ghost of High Heart? She's a bit of an enigma - she has some links to Summerhall and obviously the Targaryen's, but who is she? What does she know? Will she pop up again in the series?

Interested to hear your thoughts....

 

[SEF]

Yeah this has been discussed for some years and at lengh for some time at the Martin Board. I do agree.

It has, and the popular theory is of course Syrio/Jaqen was a Faceless Man. Mandon Moore threw Syrio in prison, while imprisoned or afterwards he turned into Jaqen which placed him in Yoren's company to be taken to the Wall. Doh! (And that was aimed at myself, btw, because if you've finished ACoK, with the departure between Arya and Jaqen, it is self explanatory).

 

[Jeroam]

Culwhich said:
) What's the deal with the Ghost of High Heart? She's a bit of an enigma - she has some links to Summerhall and obviously the Targaryen's, but who is she? What does she know? Will she pop up again in the series?

There's a line or two somewhere that she had a daughter, Jeyne, and that's the Summerhall connection which I didn't see until Selmy starts to tell Daenerys about Rhaegar. Something about Rhaegar always being a bit down after the tragedy at Summerhall, but he doesn't say what happened. I'm sure it will be explained, George is just setting it up for later. What was the song she asked for? That was a bit of great writing, everyone sang the bear song sooner or later in the book but each under very different circumstances.
I think Bolton was just in the habit of burning books. He's definitely a book burner kinda guy.

 

[snow forever]

The problem i have with the jaqen=syrio theory is the black cells.

I mean i got the impression (from ned's chapter) that the black cells are small dungeon cells - there's only room for a few men in a cell. And so, when the jailor releases jaqen fot yoren - it doesn't seems suspicious to him seeing an unfamilliar person leave ???

Otherwise i'm fine with the theory. both men come from braavos, both seem to be interested in arya's fate, and arya's interactions with both greatly boost her self confidence.



btw, any ideas what was jaqen doing in king's landing in the first
place ??

 

[Direwolf]

An unrecognized man might draw the suspicion of a jailor, but jailors aren't always the brightest bulbs in the bunch. I'm sure they're not paid well, either. And if the Kings Landing jailor is anything like the one in the Vale.... Also, if Syrio survived, he would have been jailed right as power was tranferring from the Baratheons to the Lannisters. Personnel was changing, loyalties were changing, and it's easy to imagine a low-profile prisoner slipping out into the watch.

What I want to know, is what the heck Yoren was doing with those guys to begin with. I know the Wall was home to misfits and miscreants, but I can't imagine the black brothers having any use for Rorge and Biter. If they needed to be caged on the road north, why would it be safe to release them once they've arrived?

 

[snow forever]

it's easy to imagine a low-profile prisoner slipping out into the watch.

Well...

Syrio is not that low profile, he did kill 5 unarmed guards with a wooden training
sword !!!
I can't imagine that the the jailor/s wern't told to keep an eye over him ...



You are right, the whole situation with yoren and the chained prisoners is very fishy. I wonder if someone asked yoren to take them with him and release them along the way ...

Maybe someone in KL even hired syrio/jaqen (jaqen did hurry somewhere in the end of CoK).

that would explain many things.

 

[TomServo]

This thread looks like its been dead for a while but I didn't want to make a new thread for the same old topic. Anyway, I have been thinking about the whole Syrio=Jaquen idea, and reading the posts. It so far has seemed like wishful thinking, but I thought of something(hopefully an original idea) that may actually provide some evidence. If I remember correctly, Syrio got his position in Bravos because he was able to see the cat for what it really was. Now, the evidence part of this may come in during Arya's training. This sort of thing seems to me like a piece of the training for faceless men's face changing. So if Arya needs to learn to see things for what they really are during her training, then maybe we have a little solid evidence for the Syrio=Jaqen thing. This is kind of a whim idea I just add so please either add to it, or destroy it without mercy.

 

[JDP]

I'd be disappointed if Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. It just doesn't ring true to me - and gritty realism is what I like about ASOIAF. This would just be needlessly convenient.

Plus, I prefer the idea of Syrio going knowingly to his death to protect Arya. For me, that makes a stronger character than one with miraculous powers of deception.

 

[Boaz]

It just doesn't ring true to me - and gritty realism is what I like about ASOIAF. This would just be needlessly convenient.

I feel exactly the same.

 

[vervain_ashe]

Indeed.

 

[Shacklock]

I dunno. It seems to slot together nicely, the whole them being the same person thing. Although yea, a little obvious.

Oh and I'm new round here, soo hi or something *waves*

 

[Boaz]

Shack, welcome to the Chronicles Network. I'm glad you posted on the GRRM forum first.

Syrio=Jaqen is almost too perfect... I dunno that I can buy this idea.

 

[Shacklock]

Shack, welcome to the Chronicles Network. I'm glad you posted on the GRRM forum first.

Syrio=Jaqen is almost too perfect... I dunno that I can buy this idea.

Thanks. Although looking around, theres a fair few authors on here I love. Scot Card/Gemmel for example.

 

[vervain_ashe]

Welcome, Shacklock. I'm new here too... and I like your choice of authors. I discovered Ender years ago, and have since compiled a complete library!

 

[JDP]

The only real connections between the two men are:

- Both are Braavosi
- Both are deadly
- Syrio exitted at roughly the same time as Jaqen entered
- Both have an interest in Arya

Now, call me cynical, but these are all pretty circumstantial, eh? The only one that holds any weight is that both characters could be linked directly to Arya, but that doesn't work because it was only luck that both Jaqen and Arya were both taken into Yoren's band. Jaqen (as Syrio/Jaqen) could have engineered his own part, but Yoren himself grabbed Arya on his own initiative.

Was there other evidence? I don't have the books but can't remember anything that stood out.

It doesn't mean it's not possible, but all this means that it's (IMHO) a bit of weak storytelling if it ends up being the case.

 

[sebcharrot]

Plus, I prefer the idea of Syrio going knowingly to his death to protect Arya. For me, that makes a stronger character than one with miraculous powers of deception.

I agree.