Incorrect use of 'What' for 'That' .?. Regional Dialects

Here's an example of how the words might be exchanged by people I know:

Person A: hey did you hear about Elon Musks new invention?

Person B: who?

Person A: that bloke what owns Tesla...
 
I don't avoid split infinitives, because it's a fake rule invented by a single obsessive. I do occasionally use "to whom", because sometimes it feels more elegant. But I'm also a fan of "was sat" etc, which I know causes no end of wear on TJ's teeth (I can hear them grinding now).

To risk widening the topic a bit, I wonder how many comical, deliberately incorrect internet memes such as "what even is this?" will end up passing into more normal use.
 
I actually checked "what" in the Online Etymology Dictionary to try and see if there was any explanation for its use as "that" in certain circumstances, and it was silent on the point, plus I checked in my own big Oxford Dictionary of English to see if it made any comment on the use or even defined it as such, but it wasn't mentioned. The latter in particular is keen to point out dialect, and the fact neither refer to it to my mind again points to its being incorrect usage of standard English, not a hangover from a time when it was considered to be correct in anyone's tongue in any area or social class. Obviously, however, if you've got evidence to the contrary, I'll bow to that.


Consider instead of searching for 'what,' search for 'wot.'

K2
 
To risk widening the topic a bit, I wonder how many comical, deliberately incorrect internet memes such as "what even is this?" will end up passing into more normal use.

Actually, 'wut?' is commonly recognized across the net as no longer simply being an abbreviation of 'what,' yet a comical or sarcastic response implying a false ignorance by the user. In fact, it is so common I was using it as my tag-line under my avatar here for a while. Naturally, excluding the 'false' aspect.

K2
 
...you're using "dialect" as a class-based division rather than a geographical one.
As I said, it is very complicated. It is geographical, but it is also due to education, gender, age, ethnicity, and other social variables. I would guess that even in the early Twentieth Century a tenant farmer spoke a different accent to the landowner despite being born yards away from each other.
...to my mind again points to its being incorrect usage of standard English, not a hangover from a time when it was considered to be correct in anyone's tongue in any area or social class.
By "Standard" English", I'm assuming you are using the definition of the "language variety used by a population for public purposes." There are 'Received Pronunciation' or 'Queen's English' which were taught in the early Twentieth Century in England and spoken on the BBC, but that was not the way the vast majority of the population ever spoke. To imply the vast majority of the population speaks incorrectly because of their "class" still irks me.

You may be correct that this use of "what" isn't geographical. I have no evidence except that it is impossible to wipe out similar kinds of regional difference in language even with compulsory education. The Chinese have been trying to enforce Mandarin for many years and have not yet succeeded.

Am I taking a throwaway comment a little too personally? Yes, probably, but like the other anecdotes regarding dialects already given here, I was ribbed for several years because, rather than say, "I'm going to take a shower," or, "I'm going to have a shower," I would say, "I'm going to get a shower." My friend would ask if I really hadn't bought enough showers yet? However, my word construction was not wrong or incorrect, it was just a product of my own regional dialect together with my own education, gender, age, ethnicity, and social variables (including "class" if such a thing still exists.) At junior school I was also ribbed because I pronounced "Film" as "Filim" but I've since come to realise that too is just an extremely localised case of dialect differences because of social variables. At university, people would knock on my door and ask me to pronounce "Road" which is even funnier now, because back in the North East I would now be considered a Southerner from the way I speak.

My pronunciation of words and my sentence construction represents "me" personally; it is a part of who I am, and as @Ursa major points out, it includes my heritage and ethnicity just as much as location of birth.
 
Also, can anyone think of any old English literature, where what is used in place of that? Shakespeare, Chaucer etc?

Checking Shakespeare, 'wot' is listed as 'to know,' 'wat' a 'familiar word for hare.' 'What' is not listed.

That said, looking over a glossary of Shakespearean words, by todays standards it makes one wonder how he might be considered out of context. Many words meanings, uh... interesting. :whistle:


K2
 
At junior school I was also ribbed because I pronounced "Film" as "Filim" but I've since come to realise that too is just an extremely localised case of dialect differences because of social variables
I still say it like that, so do most people I know...
"are we gonna watch a fillem tonight?"

And speaking of 'wot'
 
Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge may help. I’ve been looking for my copy without success but if anyone else has a copy...
 

Similar threads


Back
Top