Game of Thrones: 8.05 - The Bells

[ctg]

Which Hand wins?

Varys betrays his queen, and Daenerys brings her forces to King's Landing.

By the way that quote is from the HBO GoT pages. I hope Vary's gets roasted. The episode is 80 minutes long.

 

[-K2-]

Well, there we have it... I'll not start an episode 5 thread being @ctg 's thing... but:

Spoiler: Serious spoiler-- don't look till after you've watched episode-5

Right or wrong, 'I'm' getting the sense that power is becoming more important to her than changing the world for the better with it. Like her little smirk when the dragons flew over terrifying the people. Absolute power, corruption and all that coming to mind.

Of course, that was predicted long ago in a much earlier in season-2:

She's as mad as dad... I'm taking odds on who the next king-slayer will be

K2

 

[zmunkz]

Spoiler: S8e5

So disappointing. Telegraphed with rabit ferocity starting mainly this season, Dany’s arc capitulates to the mad queen, and now the entire series comes down to a “climax” between Dany and Jon. Completely failed to deliver on all early promises since the NK died, and they’ve taken nothing but the most bland route since then.

Except Cliganebowl. That was brilliant.

So I guess either Jon or Ayra kill Dany now, and who the **** really cares anymore.

Come on D&D, do something unexpected to tie all these years-long arcs together, instead of just letting them fall and crash wherever they land. Am I a fool for still hoping?

 

[Koopa]

Spoiler: Just in case

They portrayed the moment all went fubar quite well, and the fubar stuff as well. I definintely would not have want to be in KL. Jon his complete helplessness was portrayed quite good as well. It's not a bad episode action wise. Dany's turn was done more than okay for me. So in a sense the emotions and characters were done well, except that somehow i didn't quite care as much as i think i should have.

The Golden Company and the Iron Fleet suddenly reduced to fodder, after they were first build up.... In the end, the only reason for being for the Golden Company, is that it made Cersei feel like she stood a chance. Beyond that, useless. On the flip side, dragons suddenly once more seem like all powerful. Talk about plot convenience.

Don't understand why Euron didn't die on his ship. What was the point of that skirmish really. It seemed to me grrm also told the show writers that the hound and the mountain would die fighting each other and the hound would die by fire. At least this battle wasn't entirely pointless since it still was someone in line with the hound character and motivation. Though not entirely since he did find some new outlooks on life since.

The volanqar prophecy is also down the drain i guess.

As for Dany, she purposefully killed lots of civilians. I mean, even when all was won she continued to reduce the city. So her tyrant arc has been completed. No taking back, going back after what she has done. Grey Worm and the dothraki (whom all of a sudden popped back into existence) joined in. So they are a lost cause too. I alway felt Dany had no real claim to westeros, and her desire for it was a sign of megalomania in the books. The Show confirmed my feelings on that.

Question is, where will the show runners go from here. Will dany be allowed to rule? Honestly a tyrant ruling like that would not be unrealistic. On the other end, grrm said the ending would be bittersweet. Dany ruling would just be bittter at this point. So my guess is, she is ultimately done for. Meaning Jon, Arya, Sansa, or Tyrion are likely candidates to try and kill dany. I''m not sure if Arya ever specified which queen on her list. Did she say Cersei or did she simply ever state the queen in the books and show? Stuff like lists seem more reliable at this point in the show than prophecies. Sansa is a bit far away. Tyrion seems willing but an unlikely candidate. Maybe that is what the show wil go for. Not sure anymore if the 3 betrayals were mentioned that dany would suffer. maybe Jon will be the last betrayer cause of what she has just done. Jon has broken his vows before when he deemed it necessary so it's not entirely unlikely.

I felt strangely detached from some of the characters not really caring as much as i though i would. I think it's dissapointment from the last 2 seasons. I still want the Stark siblings to make it through, but i can't really find someone else i'm truly rooting for.
Lastly Bronn, where you at bro? if this guy ends up getting Highgarden after all it would be crazy.

Whilst i was typing this ctg posted another thread for this. Can someone maybe merge them?

 

[ctg]

The current rating. It's kind of funny to browse through the IMDB reviews. Most of them are mad at the producers, and most of them are avoiding spoiling things. I guess it's a twitter thing. Most that are visible are like this

 

[Koopa]

I thought about this episode some more, and i came to the realisation that i only felt tense about Arya's fate, cause her fate (the way the episode went) was the only one that wasn't phoned in. I was certain Jon would survive after how easily the golden company and the iron fleet fell. I was certain Jaime and Cersei were going to not make it after some point in the episode as well (minutes before their ultimate end).

I have to give it up once more for their portrayal of the sacking of king's landing though. The destruction of it all really made me grateful i wasn't there. And even more so to have had the fortune to having never set foot in a warzone in real life myself.

 

[ctg]

I haven't watched the episode yet, but I understand that there has been major character deaths. Thing is, I think HBO felt pressure from AMC over the years and they thought it is a good trend to kill of your darlings. It's just we learned from the TWD's cock up that the general audience doesn't like to see their hero's go down. They want them to survive despite the odds, but they are absolutely fine it deaths were to save others, or there was nothing anything could do to prevent them from happening. But if the death is stupid one the fans riot, and today, they'll write one-star review, and sooner than we know the episode gets review bombed ... or they'll leave the show completely.

 

[ctg]

I put this here, instead in the last episode, as it deals with the writer problem in a non-spoilery way.

If you’re tired of feeling like Game of Thrones is making it obvious what’s going to happen in its final two episodes, try this for a surprising twist. We’re on the brink of war between Daenerys Targaryen and Cersei Lannister. All the forces are aligned. And just when the battle is about to begin, the Seven appear. You know, the Father, the Mother, the Smith, the Maiden, the Stranger, the Crone, the Warrior—the embodiments of the divine worshipped by a good chunk of Westeros. Instead of allowing the people who survived the Night King’s assault to slaughter one another just as a yearslong winter is about to start, the Seven intervene and create a new order, with civic institutions to adjudicate disputes (even those involving rulers), an end to feudalism, and a newly robust state with a monopoly on the use of force.

I love this ending. It’s shocking, it reconnects with the source material’s deep skepticism about the efficacy of violence, and it’s the way that the story of the House of Atreus, the original multigenerational revenge saga, ends in Aeschylus’ Oresteia. But it’s a little too shocking, a little too deliberately unsatisfying, and it’s missing a sense of inevitability to mix with the surprise. What we really want when something ends is the delicious feeling of watching something unexpected happen and then realizing, perhaps with a wry smile and a nod, that it always had to end like this.

Slate’s Use of Your Data

 

[Al Jackson]

I have a technical observation. The best action sequences in the series have been Hardhome and Battle of the Bastards....both done by Miguel Sapochnik*. So for season 8 Sapochnik has done The Long Night and The Bells. I think Hardhome and BoB are superior to
Sapochnik's effors so far, The Long Night is better than The Bells. All in all it is very good work but there too many 'held shots' to point of it seeming like some tap dancing. Pacing feels ragged and there are 'seams', like Dany's attack on the Iron Fleet is way to fast , the set up needed elaboration , Euron taken out in a split second... and then Euron showing up feels like a moment of , opps1 we almost forgot about Euron!.... I think it was in the writing , D&D seem to have problems with long action sequences.

*I note , in Battle of the Bastards, the first battle is Dany breaking the siege of Meereen , this is a short sequence but done in an effective manner.

 

[Al Jackson]

Dany’s berserkgang was very Homeric
“—so as the great Achilles rampaged on, his sharp-hoofed stallions
trampled shields and corpses….”
After receiving the news of the death of his friend Patroclus, Achilles goes berserkergang , killing so many Trojans that even the gods try to restrain him. The Greeks later sack Troy killing everyone and burning the city.

 

[zmunkz]

Had this in the wrong thread.... reposting:

Spoiler: E5

So disappointing. Telegraphed with rabid ferocity starting mainly this season, Dany’s arc capitulates to the mad queen, and now the entire series comes down to a “climax” between Dany and Jon. Completely failed to deliver on all early promises since the NK died, and they’ve taken nothing but the most bland route since then.

Except Cliganebowl. That was brilliant.

So I guess either Jon or Ayra kill Dany now, and who the **** really cares anymore.

Come on D&D, do something unexpected to tie all these years-long arcs together, instead of just letting them fall and crash wherever they land. Am I a fool for still hoping?

 

[REBerg]

Arya’s ability to escape death is exponentially extending the Stark House average lifespan.

I lost count of how many times she appeared to have to have made her final exit. Yet, cut, bruised and sooty, Arya was the one to ride out of the flaming ruins of Kings Landing atop the horse that also miraculously survived the carnage.

Her survival undoubtedly will serve a purpose. That purpose will apparently not be killing Cersei – assuming Cersei and Jamie do not share her uncanny talent for surviving heavy falling objects.

Dany literally burned whatever future figurative bridges she might have had to her new subjects. Did she honestly believe that future Kings Landing generations will accept her as a benevolent monarch and forget the multitudes of innocents she incinerated alive on her road to the Iron Throne?

I was dismayed when Dany so easily destroyed the defending military forces and started her civilian street-cleaning operations. Did she resolve the conflict of her love for Jon and her belief in destiny by destroying those who would favor his rule over hers? (R.I.P., Varys)

The look on Jon’s face as Dany continued her massacring mission indicated that whatever love he had retained for her had been replaced by "what-the-hell-have-I-gotten-myself-into?" fear. She lost my vote for GOT Ultimate Winner.

My favorite resolution here was the Clegane Brothers death match. The Hound apparently did not realize that the Mountain was already legally dead, which made killing him by normal means a frustrating process.

I was yelling at the Hound: “He’s a zombie! Stab him in the head!” Unfortunately, when the Hound finally took my advice, he discovered that GOT Super Zombies are more headstrong than the average member of the living dead. I wondered if decapitation would even have done the trick.

While I was still hoping to see the Mountain’s head roll down a stairway, the Hound made his kamikaze move to end the fight. I imagined that the Hound’s final thought was: “Oh, (expletive), did it have to be fire?”

 

[-K2-]

Posted in the other thread inappropriately...

Well, there we have it...

Spoiler: Serious spoiler-- don't look till after you've watched episode-5

Of course, that result was predicted long ago in a much earlier in season-2:

She's as mad as dad... I'm taking odds on who the next king-slayer will be. Part of the proof in that all of the 'wildfire' stocked around the city from Aerys Targaryen. I'm still of the opinion that the Night King was a Targaryen ancestor being impervious to fire and could swear they hinted at his return in his post 'death' preview of things to come.

K2

 

[zmunkz]

Not sure how to spioiler-tag quoted stuff, so...

***** spoilers! *****

Dany literally burned whatever future figurative bridges she might have had to her new subjects. Did she honestly believe that future Kings Landing generations will accept her as a benevolent monarch and forget the multitudes of innocents she incinerated alive on her road to the Iron Throne?

Not to mention she doesn’t have any heirs. Since when has she ever been about future generations? It was always about her personal right.

Another part of this mad queen twist that irks me is how everybody else in-world was used to sell it to us. Jon bent the knee after being convinced she was the real thing, Tyrion vouched that people only needed to get to know her to see, how many others? Either they are all morons, or else they are just as pissed at her out-of-character breakdown these last ~8 episodes as we are.

My favorite resolution here was the Clegane Brothers death match. The Hound apparently did not realize that the Mountain was already legally dead, which made killing him by normal means a frustrating process.

Yes! Highlight of the episode!

 

[ctg]

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" The last line before the title sequence. "No, nobody wants to wake the bloody dragon," is the answer to the question. "Only a person with a death wish would do that sort of thing ... or then you'd have to be brain-dead," I'd continue. "Bloody nightmares those things are, when you wake them up. 'A bear with a sore head' doesn't even compare to the level of grumpiness you're going to receive."

So Vary's wrote a letter, revealing the whole Jon being Tarquarian business. Maybe Sansa really learned from the best, when the Little Finger took her under his wing. Bad little spider. But we do what we do for the love of things. All he ever wanted was "right ruler on the throne."

It's just I think Varys forgot that the men love singularly and they don't often share ideals. Jon loves Dany as she is and nothing is ever going to change that, maybe. And he's perfectly fine without the bloody throne, because the politics has never been his strong suit.

I don't get why Dany is feeling so threatened by the fact that there is another. She shouldn't. Instead she should be the strong lady, that she learned to be after Drogo died. What happened to her? Why can't she be smart and learn from the best?

Varys knew that the secrets were going to take him to the grave. I hoped he would have survived, as I liked the man. I really did. But I get that in that trade, the end is often vicious. In her defence Dany said to Jon, "Far more people in the Westeros loves you. I don't have love here. I only have fear."

Oh man, she has lost the plot. "I love you. You will always be my Queen," Jon replied. Thing is, the people in the other continent feared her more than they loved her. She ruled by fear, she conquered the region by fear, then she brought it over the Narrow Sea and continued to rule by fear, not love.

She ever argued that the people Cercei had locked inside the walls were there in their own will, and therefore supporting tyranny. But her suggestion of only accepting her in the Iron Throne is tyranny. To be honest, this makes want to melt down that throne and possibly replace it was something more elegant.

"I need to ask you a favour..." Tyrion told to Davos. "You are the greatest smuggler alive." I really hope it's you and Jamie that you're asking to get disappeared from the scene, because that's what I would do. Take a long vacation from the Westeros as soon as possible.

I really liked that Tyrion used his rank to gain access to Jamie, but I don't like that he used his final card to betray her Queen. All I can say in his favour is that blood matters, and he could not have left Jamie to rot in a tent, when the lives of millions are in stake.

If Dany would be wise, she would have anticipated this move and used it as leverage against Tyrion later on. If she would be really wise, she would allow all the character to wreck havoc inside Cercei's camp. After all, none of them wants Cercei to remain on Iron Throne.

Dragonis. I'm slightly surprised that Arya and Hound managed to make it inside the city just before the attack. Jamie too. The Iron Fleet was stupidly without the sails, just waiting for the attack. It would have been better if they had been on move instead of sitting like ducks.

I'm glad that I was guessed rightly that those scorpions didn't had much of angular movement, further proving the neck shot being impossible. What I didn't like was how easily the centre of the Golden Company was taken. After that it was just a slaughter that Cercei's men couldn't hold.

To be honest, this is the only time when the dragon has been used to its best potential. You just cannot fight against the superior being with static formations. You'll need to be mobile and use special tactics.

Cercei refused to yield. As if there was no other choice. Her Hand told there was no other choice. Yet, as if opposing the reality she remained standing by her window, overlooking the destruction of King's Landing. Her men were wiser. They understood that the fight was over once the city was breached.

It was so chilling to hear the people yelling to ring the bell. Then it happening and Dany not giving up. I guess all one can say is Valar Morghulis - All Men Has To Die - and she took it too far, making Jon the only favourite for the throne.

WTF??? Jamie almost dies to Euron's blade after he'd been swimming all the way from the burning wreckages to the secret cave, while wearing an armour, and blade, and God knows what else that pirate has in his person. Jamie the KingSlayer, a survivor of the Long Night dies due to a fight that should not have happened.

Maybe it's even more amazing that Euron's leather clothes dried under 30 seconds from being completely soaked. Who is his tailor and where does he finds strength to have a brawl?

This was much more satisfying fight and it has been on the cards for a long, long time. My money was on Undead Mountain as there is not much Hound can do against that massive strength. He just cannot get any bigger or stronger or suddenly have a weapon made out of Valerian steel. Their ending was satisfying.

 

[ctg]

Not sure how to spioiler-tag quoted stuff, so...

***** spoilers! *****

Oh please. Inside these threads don't feel obligated to use the spoiler tags. These are dedicated threads in a dedicated forum. If you have something, please feel free. It is only a problem when it's in the general section with all the threads.

 

[ctg]

 

[Susan Boulton]

I honestly think people have not been getting the trail of breadcrumbs with regards to Danny. She had, even in exile, been taught of her family's birthright. Who she was, what blood ran in her veins. She had also learned that women were, "second class," just useful tools of the male members of her family. Her brother, and her first husband. (and don't tell me that was love, it was first him using her, then Danny learning to use him, and in the end, on destroying the council, his people) Men have been in various guises through out the series, the enemy, if not in reality, then in her eyes. Useful, yes, but not trustworthy, even Ser Jorah Mormont . She used his love for her from the beginning, in the beginning by survival instinct, then later consciously. As she has grown in power, she has begun to believe she is the not only the rightful Queen, but only she has all the answers to the problems of the seven kingdoms. To her, Jon at first useful, and attractive. Is it love, no, I don't think so, maybe she believed she loved him, but he became a threat, once she found out his birthright. It made her second class again. All this not only challenges her belief that she is the rightful Queen, he is also a man. Danny has displayed at times, in the last three series very narcissistic tendencies at times. How many shots has there been of her looking at herself, measuring her expressions, and the affect she has on others.

As to regards to the loss of her Dragons. Both times is was the result of over confidence, a total blindness to the fact that others would even try to kill them. The loss of the second one was caused by her belief that any enemy would not dare to attack, she was Queen, she was the dragon mother. She from the beginning has horded her hurts, and you can see it on her face, each one has built on the last and the destruction of King's Landing was the result, and could be seen coming from season 4. In many way she and Cersi are the same, save that Cersi has always seen men and women as equal, as in that they could be, lovers, allies, enemies, or friends. Danny has always seen men as enemy, maybe she is herself unaware of this in some respects.

 

[Al Jackson]

Posted in the other thread inappropriately...

Well, there we have it...

Spoiler: Serious spoiler-- don't look till after you've watched episode-5

Of course, that result was predicted long ago in a much earlier in season-2:

She's as mad as dad... I'm taking odds on who the next king-slayer will be. Part of the proof in that all of the 'wildfire' stocked around the city from Aerys Targaryen. I'm still of the opinion that the Night King was a Targaryen ancestor being impervious to fire and could swear they hinted at his return in his post 'death' preview of things to come.

K2

Except the window looks like this now.

 

[Al Jackson]

Thing is Dany's dad Aerys II was Bug F**king nuts!
Dany is only berserkergang.