Help with Welsh

[sknox]

I have a few lines in Welsh to appear in my upcoming book. Does anyone here speak the language? I'm afraid I turned to Google Translate for the following. If anyone knows Welsh, I'd appreciate knowing how you would read these lines. Here's the excerpt:

“Nik,” I said. “There’s someone coming.”
That got them on their feet. Henrik called out a hallo. The old man raised his staff in acknowledgment. When he got closer, he replied.
“Do not dawn is he.”
The words made no sense at all, but that’s what my ears heard.
He came closer. With his white hair and beard, his heavy boots and woolen clothes, he looked very much like a shepherd, but no sheep were in sight.
“Beth with scene twin I do ma?”
It was no sort of language I recognized. I turned to Henrik. “Where in the world have we come out?”
The professor spoke past me.
“Pentref ger?”
“Ie, dros yno,” the old man replied.


That's it. Any help is much appreciated. I don't want these lines, which aren't terrifically important, to come out sounding like "my hovercraft is full of eels."

 

[Cathbad]

I got rid of my eels.

(But, sorry, I have no knowledge of that language.)

 

[The Judge]

All I know about Welsh is that it isn't pronounced how it looks to an English speaker, but it is always consistent in how it's pronounced (ie no through/though/tough problems). So in case there's confusion, for the lines like “Do not dawn is he.” it might be best to make it clear what you want the speaker to be saying, and ask how it would be pronounced.

Our member Caledfwlch is, I'm pretty sure, a Welsh speaker, but he's not been here since Feb 2018. ZlodeyVolk wanted help with Welsh last May and I suggested then that he try PMing Caledfwlch, but I've no idea how he got on. Might be worth PMing him (ie ZV) to see if he got any reaction.

 

[svalbard]

I have a few lines in Welsh to appear in my upcoming book. Does anyone here speak the language? I'm afraid I turned to Google Translate for the following. If anyone knows Welsh, I'd appreciate knowing how you would read these lines. Here's the excerpt:

“Nik,” I said. “There’s someone coming.”
That got them on their feet. Henrik called out a hallo. The old man raised his staff in acknowledgment. When he got closer, he replied.
“Do not dawn is he.”
The words made no sense at all, but that’s what my ears heard.
He came closer. With his white hair and beard, his heavy boots and woolen clothes, he looked very much like a shepherd, but no sheep were in sight.
“Beth with scene twin I do ma?”
It was no sort of language I recognized. I turned to Henrik. “Where in the world have we come out?”
The professor spoke past me.
“Pentref ger?”
“Ie, dros yno,” the old man replied.


That's it. Any help is much appreciated. I don't want these lines, which aren't terrifically important, to come out sounding like "my hovercraft is full of eels."

Is it Old Welsh or the modern version or does it matter?

 

[Biskit]

All I know about Welsh is that it isn't pronounced how it looks to an English speaker, but it is always consistent in how it's pronounced (ie no through/though/tough problems). So in case there's confusion, for the lines like “Do not dawn is he.” it might be best to make it clear what you want the speaker to be saying, and ask how it would be pronounced.

Our member Caledfwlch is, I'm pretty sure, a Welsh speaker, but he's not been here since Feb 2018. ZlodeyVolk wanted help with Welsh last May and I suggested then that he try PMing Caledfwlch, but I've no idea how he got on. Might be worth PMing him (ie ZV) to see if he got any reaction.

Although comments from some of my family indicate significant regional accents within Wales. The southern contingent claimed the northeners didn't speak Welsh properly and vice-versa.

I was born and raised in Bristol, so don't speak a word of Welsh.

 

[Brian G Turner]

The professor spoke past me.
“Pentref ger?”
“Ie, dros yno,” the old man replied.

The thing is, unless your character is conversant with Welsh, he's not going to hear actual Welsh but a series of phonemes. So I wouldn't personally expect to see any Welsh, unless the POV character knows any.

Or unless the writer needs to hit the reader with a blunt hammer about it.

Btw, there is a Welsh course on Duolingo, if you want to cover some basics for free.

 

[sknox]

The POV doesn't, but the professor does. Our party has landed (came through a portal) in parts unknown (a stone circle, to be exact). This fellow comes walking across the hills and that's the exchange. It's how the professor figures out they've come out in Wales. It's north Wales and it's 19thc, if that matters.

I can handle the scene by having the narrator simply say she didn't understand the man, that it sounded like gibberish (she's German--north German, and that does matter!<g>--); that the professor spoke to him, then turns and says we're in Wales. So, I can work around it. I have taken some pains for historical accuracy elsewhere in the book and shouldn't like to get this bit wrong.

 

[LittleStar]

TJ is kinda right Welsh doesn’t always look like it sounds... But for the most part I found it relatively relatable/readable when I moved here when I was young (I did move only a few miles from the border though?) I don’t speak Welsh myself, but I’m now based in an area where it is taught to all children in some degree, and is first language for a decent portion of people. You pick up the general feel of pronunciation fairly quickly

There are rules that make a lot of it consistent, double L and double D sends for example. And there are a lot of borrowed words that are easily identifiable, eg. Sinema and Parc, these examples might not be appropriate time wise though.

On first read it was gibberish. And it still is to me, but knowing it is a German non speakers Welsh, it has enough identifiable sounds for me to think, oh yeah, maybe it is, without looking into much detail. But if you want it to be translatable by a Welsh reader (even if the sounds are anglisiced) I’d follow TJs suggestion, ask how to pronounce what you intend to say and hope someone better than me comes along to answer

 

[sknox]

Good suggestion. I have one other lead I'm pursuing, then I'll follow your idea.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

A North Welsh speaker:

Pentrev gar (village and name)

Al dross ah noss (I will go there)

 

[sknox]

I realized after posting that the first couple of lines I intentionally did phonetically. I might try to make that a little clearer. Or else just have the narrator say that the stranger spoke but it sounded like gibberish.

Anyway, what the professor says, and the reply, ought to be correct.
He asks is there a village near. The stranger should say, I'll show you, or I'll take you there.

Thanks for all the responses so far. Rather a lot of work for just a few lines!

 

[hitmouse]

Speak s Welsh and sw Welsh dialects to a reasonable degree.
Is there a village near?
Oes pentref agos 'ma?
Sounds like: Os pentrev agos ma?

I will show you the way
Byddai'n dangos ti y ffordd
Sounds a bit like: buth a een dangos tea uh forth.

 

[sknox]

Keen, hitmouse! Any reason why I should fuss over north versus south here? Such things have been known to matter. <g>

 

[hitmouse]

Just take your pick. The differerence is academic to anyone who doesnt speak Welsh, and even more so to anyone who lives outside the uk. Also, spoken Welsh is a bit different to formal written Welsh, and uses lots of shortcuts and slang. I think that gives you some licence. Keep it simple.

A purist might take issue with some of my grammar: in the second example, should really use chi instead of ti ( equivalent to vous/tu in French), or in the north a combined chti, but ch is pronounced as in Bach, not as in cheese, and that would be tricky to get down concisely on paper.

I recommend that you try listening to BBC Radio Cymru to get an idea of how spoken Welsh sounds: it has a quite distinctive rythmn and intonation.

 

[Danny McG]

Just gargle while doing a Donald Duck impression and write down how that sounds

 

[sknox]

Thanks, hitmouse. I'll roll with what I've got; or, rather, what you kind folks have provided me with. Other factors that would enter are the fact that this fellow is probably a shepherd or similar rustic, and that this is the Altearth equivalent of mid-19thc. So, plenty of phonetic shifts going on there. The professor is inferring a lot from just a handful of sentences, but by this point in the story the reader knows he's an arrogant academic who tends to pronounce his theories as if they were certainties. He hears something Welsh-ish, grabs at a few other clues (terrain, the nearby standing stones) and declares it's Snowdonia as if it were obvious. And, because it's this particular character, it turns out he's right.

Anyway, thanks to all. It's been a good exercise in creating verisimilitude.