One piece of advice I often see given to new writers is to keep your POV locked to one character. Yet in published works, I see this 'rule' broken all the time. One explanation I've heard is that it used to be ok but now it's not. But I guess I struggle with the rationale behind that. If it works it works, right? So would an editor reject a story just because of a POV shift? Or if not a shift, but POV that is able to show things that the central character would not be able to see? How does one employ dramatic irony then, or is that a taboo now as well?
semi omniscient POV
- Thread starter ckatt
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L.L.Lotte
The Anime King
There are authors out there who do break the headhopping rule, but they arent an exemplar of how novels should be written. Just because headhopping didnt prevent them from getting published doesnt mean their writing is good. And as for if you still have a chance of getting published, well im sure some agents must be ok with it, while some others would write you off for it
But head hopping does not equal omniscient narration. They two different things.
While not as popular as it once was, it is still ok to use an omniscient narrator, but it should be written as if the narrator is a fly on the wall character that can see everything and knows what all characters in the scene are thinking, that way you shouldnt get people complaining about head hopping. Note: the omniscient narrator is best written as a character that is not present in the scene or at least an older version of the protagonist recounting the story at a later date.
An omniscient narrator is the proper way to show a scene that involves the thoughts and perspective of multiple characters.
But head hopping does not equal omniscient narration. They two different things.
While not as popular as it once was, it is still ok to use an omniscient narrator, but it should be written as if the narrator is a fly on the wall character that can see everything and knows what all characters in the scene are thinking, that way you shouldnt get people complaining about head hopping. Note: the omniscient narrator is best written as a character that is not present in the scene or at least an older version of the protagonist recounting the story at a later date.
An omniscient narrator is the proper way to show a scene that involves the thoughts and perspective of multiple characters.
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Cathbad
Level 30 Geek Master
"Semi"-omniscient?
Is that where the narrator can only see inside the mind of only one character but is not that character?
Is that where the narrator can only see inside the mind of only one character but is not that character?
Steve Harrison
Well-Known Member
The bottom line is that you can do any of the things you are 'not supposed to do' if you do them so well that no one notices. It's one of the reasons new writers are so confused by so many examples of published works packed to the rafters with all the things they are told they should not do.
The key to any work, IMO, is to find what you believe works best and have the confidence to stick to your guns. And that comes over time with extensive trial & error and experience.
The key to any work, IMO, is to find what you believe works best and have the confidence to stick to your guns. And that comes over time with extensive trial & error and experience.
L.L.Lotte
The Anime King
Also, once you are an actual published author you can get away with breaking a lot more "rules" than what you can as an aspiring writer because you have the success of previous novels to carry sway - - and learn from.
Remember that agents are looking for any reason to pass on your ms, and typically, new writers are not as good at breaking the "rules" as experienced writers. So when an agent notices a new writer awkwardly doing such they might think, what other "rules" are they breaking? And how much work will be required to fix those "mistakes"? They might decide it is too much work.
Remember that agents are looking for any reason to pass on your ms, and typically, new writers are not as good at breaking the "rules" as experienced writers. So when an agent notices a new writer awkwardly doing such they might think, what other "rules" are they breaking? And how much work will be required to fix those "mistakes"? They might decide it is too much work.
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The one POV think isn’t so much a thing in other genres - I’m never quite sure why it is so frowned on in sff, to be honest.
L.L.Lotte
The Anime King
True that. Apparently in romance it is actually encouraged, so I've heard.
The usual advice (whether good or not) is to keep to one POV per chapter, scene etc. Dramatic irony is possible if you have more than one POV in the story, since the audience can know something from one POV that the other character doesn't. (This is a major potential source of suspense.) It doesn't have the same scope as in omni, obviously.
The main reason for POV "rules" in writing is because beginner writers often don't understand what they are doing when it comes to providing a POV, resulting in unnecessary head-hopping that can disorientate the reader. The "rules" on POV therefore provide a guideline for writers to better understand what they are using and why.
As Jo mentions, it's more common in some genres than others, sf/f being one where it's much more normal now to keep a close POV. However, older books tend not to adhere to it so much, not least because it wasn't so much of a norm, then. All the more reason why writers need to read a lot, so they can make technical decisions on issues such as POV use in context.
Hope that helps.
As Jo mentions, it's more common in some genres than others, sf/f being one where it's much more normal now to keep a close POV. However, older books tend not to adhere to it so much, not least because it wasn't so much of a norm, then. All the more reason why writers need to read a lot, so they can make technical decisions on issues such as POV use in context.
Hope that helps.
tegeus-Cromis
a better poet than swordsman
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Why not? I'd say that Austen, Thackeray, Dostoevsky, George Eliot, or, much closer to our time, Gabriel Garcia-Marquez, Roberto Bolaño, or Penelope Fitzgerald do indeed provide exemplars of how a novel should be written.
And one way of achieving this is to know the rules, and how to apply them, and then work out how to break them in ways that no-one notices.
This is probably a safer path to take than hoping (not hopping) that, without knowing the rules and how to apply them without breaking them, one might, simply by chance, come across the best way(s) to break them.
L.L.Lotte
The Anime King
Firstly, they are all exceptional authors from the past, no question about it. But, they are all the wrong genre.
As far as I've seen, literary fiction doesnt really have any of these rules and cannot be compared to genre.
Secondly, are they actually headhopping? I cant speak for every author you listed but take Vanity Fair by Thackery. I saw it as an omniscient narrator. Same for others, like Sense and Sensibility by Austen. They are written like as if none of the characters are narrating.
And honestly, if an unkown, unpublished writer used Austen as an example of how to write a fantasy novel, in this day and age, it would have zero chance of getting published. That is not to say it is bad, it just isnt what is wanted.
The Big Peat
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David Gemmell's first mid-scene PoV change is in page 13 of his first published book. Feist's comes on page 23 of his first published book. Both men went on to sell more than this entire forum will combined. The idea that an inexperienced genre author can't do it simply doesn't stack up to reality. Now, aye, that 30-some years ago and maybe the winds of change have blown things too far. But usually what goes out of fashion will someday come back; that is why authors such as Marie Brennan and Jeanette Ng are writing genre books that mimic fiction from the the Georgian/Victorian eras heavily.
Can omniscient mid-scene PoV shifts come back too? I don't see why not. It's merely fashion, and while it can be hard forging a career going against fashion, nothing makes a career quicker than successfully establishing a new one.
I believe that these two books are, respectively, from 1984 (35 years ago) and 1982 (37 years ago).
The move of the narrative-style version of the Overton Window towards very strict close third person PoV in SFF may a more recent phenomenon than that. Obviously, that window is more than capable of moving in the opposite direction... and could be starting to do so as we type, for all we know.
The Big Peat
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Sure. My point is that there is nothing intrinsically impossible about this for new genre authors and that this is merely fashion.
tegeus-Cromis
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It is very strange indeed that SFF has moved in this direction, as -- as The Big Peat says -- there is no intrinsic connection between these genres and single-focalizer third-person POV. As all my other examples seem to have been dismissed, I'll only mention Lev Grossman's quite recent (2010s) "Magicians" trilogy, which not only has multiple narrators, but has been so successful as to spawn a SYFY show. My point is, this is an extremely limiting rule: it may suit some writers, sure, and yield some good books. But those writers who'd like to tell stories that don't fit within these limitations should fight against them, rather than obeying some arbitrary rule.
tegeus-Cromis
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Stephen King - modern genre writer, moderately successful, uses omni and switching POV as standard. It can be done, of course - but it does put up an additional barrier when submitting to agents
The Big Peat
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Having had a quick flick through my kindle collection - Zen Cho's Sorcerer to the Crown, Fonda Lee's Jade City and Helene Wecker's The Golem and the Djinni all have elements of mid-scene PoV changes (some might argue that it's all omniscient narrator, I would argue that it is switching from narrator to PoV and back again); two are recent debuts, Jade City was Lee's first book for adults. The pendulum is swinging back a little.
Well, there is fashion and there is evolution. For example, novels have evolved quite a bit since the days of Fielding and Richardson. It's unlikely the direction that novels have moved since then is going to reverse. The current strictures on POV are newer, and their durability is less certain. Fashion is fickle, but it can be a losing proposition to get on the wrong side of evolution. Problem is, it can be hard to figure out which is which when you are in the middle of whatever is happening.
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