Inline List Punctuation...

[-K2-]

So, I have a list of fictitious dialects I wish to present as part of an 'appendix section introduction.' Working on my grammar skills, I've encountered many conflicting rules. Ultimately, I threw my hands up and decided what follows is the 'clearest' I can come up with (keeping the list inline).

If you have a notion to, please beat up what I generated, pointing out what doesn't sit well with you (punctuation perhaps the biggest issue). For clarity sake, those are EN dashes between the associated names and locations.

Thanks for your help!

Pre-Gathering originating, regional-specific, CASE P-say dialects include: Sowfee-say – South Philadelphia; V-tahk – New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’ – New Jersey influenced areas; Bawlmar – Baltimore region; C-tahk/C-say/Chop/Carney – Homestead Capital/Circus (District of Columbia surrounding); Smugs – various cultural or regional pre-Gathering dialects and slang still in use where a P-say direct replacement exists.

K2

 

[Star-child]

The semicolons make it look like the thing in front of the semicolon is addressing the thing that follows because of the space the long dashes create.

I would strongly suggest not doing this inline and give each its own carriage return.

 

[The Judge]

It read clearly to me -- in that I got that the bits between the semi-colons were together, so what followed the en-dash was the place where the dialect was used. But it took a second pass to be sure, and that required me to start at the beginning rather than dive in half-way through as I'd done initially, as I needed to check where the colon came and how the first dialect and district was noted. And to be brutally frank it was no mean feat battling through that initial clause to get there to do that.

I'd therefore suggest -- if it's compatible with how the rest of your glossary can be formed -- that you make things slightly easier on the eye by, for example:

Pre-Gathering originating, regional-specific, CASE P-say dialects include:

Sowfee-say – South Philadelphia; V-tahk – New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’ – New Jersey influenced areas; Bawlmar – Baltimore region; C-tahk/C-say/Chop/Carney – Homestead Capital/Circus (District of Columbia surrounding); Smugs – various cultural or regional pre-Gathering dialects and slang still in use where a P-say direct replacement exists.​

If you need to keep it all as one para, then I'd suggest playing around with the opening clause to make it more distinct from what follows eg by bolding that alone, or making the font bigger, or using italics elsewhere. At present it's not terribly reader-friendly, but that isn't the fault of the punctuation.

 

[Star-child]

Pre-Gathering originating, regional-specific, CASE P-say dialects include:
Sowfee-say – South Philadelphia; V-tahk – New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’ – New Jersey influenced areas; Bawlmar – Baltimore region; C-tahk/C-say/Chop/Carney – Homestead Capital/Circus (District of Columbia surrounding); Smugs – various cultural or regional pre-Gathering dialects and slang still in use where a P-say direct replacement exists.

Just curious - is bold used in standard novel typesetting?

 

[The Judge]

I have no idea! If not, -K2- can boldly go where no typesetter has gone before!

 

[Star-child]

I have no idea! If not, -K2- can boldly go where no typesetter has gone before!

Or substitute italics, which are common.

 

[-K2-]

Thanks @Star-child & @The Judge for the feedback. All of it is noted and of value to me.

@Star-child ; though an EN dash is not proper in this instance, I chose it since a comma (to me) separated the name/place too much making them seem unconnected. A hyphen made it all seem a part of the same thing ( nameplace ), EM dash was too long, etc.. Would the lack of a space before and after an EN dash help?

Ex.:
Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

As to shifting it to a line below, though I agree, I fear that it will push a 1-page introduction onto a page and a half, breaking it up. Even if it didn't, I fear that it might make each of those lines seem more consequential than they are. Does that make sense?

@The Judge ; Like I said, all/every aspect of everyone's response is noted and taken to heart. To that end you stated:
* It took a second pass to be sure about the what applied where. Would removing the space at the ends of the EN dash help (shown above)?
* "...it was no mean feat battling through that initial clause to get there to do that." I understand and appreciate that, and agree. Since that catch-word description is correct, but, also pointed out and explained in preceding paragraphs, I'll work out how I could lean that up. Perhaps CASE P-say dialects include: might be enough (though I need to confirm what I just said as to all of it together elsewhere, or that those aspects are clearly connected).
* I like how you separated the list grouping and will seriously consider it.
* "If you need to keep it all as one para, then I'd suggest playing around with the opening clause to make it more distinct from what follows eg by bolding that alone, or making the font bigger, or using italics elsewhere. At present it's not terribly reader-friendly, but that isn't the fault of the punctuation." I get that and agree, although, it is simply a formal list, nothing more. So I'm not sure past making it easier on the eye (perhaps making the places in italics, or that and the name in bold, however...).

Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

Typesetting? I seriously doubt that anything I ever write, regardless of how accomplished I might become, would ever be "truly typeset," (though realize the term also applies to digital formats). You all would know better than I would, but isn't underlining, bold, italics and so on, now merely publishers preference based on old 'type sort' tradition/standards? Again, I 'don't know,' but it seems to me that 'bold or not' has to do with just that considering that past aesthetics and readability, it would make little difference in our digital age if I used 20-fonts and all the enhancements.

As for bold in this list, if they can't/won't do it, then I'm in bigger trouble . I have glossaries which to combat the issues we're discussing above, have the item name in bold (on a new line), with the definition as standard following. Bullets, spaces, numbers and so on, bluntly look lame.

Thanks for your help.

K2

 

[The Judge]

As to shifting it to a line below, though I agree, I fear that it will push a 1-page introduction onto a page and a half, breaking it up. Even if it didn't, I fear that it might make each of those lines seem more consequential than they are. Does that make sense?

I guessed it might cause problems by way of management of the whole, but I hadn't considered the "consequential" aspect. I suppose it depends on whether other lists have the same format: if not, then it might make this one stand out as unusual.

Like I said, all/every aspect of everyone's response is noted and taken to heart. To that end you stated:
* It took a second pass to be sure about the what applied where. Would removing the space at the ends of the EN dash help (shown above)?

Not for me -- to my mind it would just make the whole thing look more cluttered. (Full dislcosure, though -- I loathe and detest em-dashes which have no space between them and the words they separate!)

* "...it was no mean feat battling through that initial clause to get there to do that." I understand and appreciate that, and agree. ...Perhaps CASE P-say dialects include: might be enough

If you can prune it down to something more manageable, that would make all the difference I think. That example here works much better.

Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

Sowfee-say–South Philadelphia; V-tahk–New Venice (New York City); Jeabe’–New Jersey influenced areas;

My personal preference is the middle one (though with spaces around the en-dash), but with the first clause in bold, you might be better going for the first one to distinguish them more cleanly.

Good luck with it!

 

[M. Robert Gibson]

Would parentheses help?

Pre-Gathering originating, regional-specific, CASE P-say dialects include: Sowfee-say (South Philadelphia); V-tahk (New Venice (New York City)); Jeabe’ (New Jersey influenced areas); Bawlmar (Baltimore region); C-tahk/C-say/Chop/Carney (Homestead Capital/Circus (District of Columbia surrounding)); Smugs - various cultural or regional pre-Gathering dialects and slang still in use where a P-say direct replacement exists.

Of course, we now have parentheses within parentheses, but you get the picture

 

[Star-child]

There is also the possibility that this is info dumping and that the information could be shared more naturally by coming out in the course of the story, one dialect at a time.

 

[-K2-]

@The Judge ; thanks for the response, I'll consider all of it. As to your EM-dash issue, I agree halfway After running into a number of websites (all in one search), I applied EM dashes, ellipses, and so on frugally yet with great results! A new form of hard-stops and fading thoughts really spiced up what I wrote in lean fashion. Then, after a post here regarding such, I checked out the CMoS and tried to apply that. How disappointing. Trouble is, there is right and wrong. Just because it worked great (wrongly applied), doesn't mean anyone else will get the intent. I'd really like to find a suitable substitute

@M. Robert Gibson ; That was one of the many versions I tried--and, I may go back to it since it makes it even more like a simple list--but, I had hoped to help the minimal passage read quickly which I feel the parentheses hinder. Then again, it is just a list *shrug*. So, I suppose I need to make a decision and just get on with it.

@Star-child ; Well, it is info dumping, on a grand scale in fact. However, as part of an introduction to an appendix glossary, I don't feel that hurts it, yet is appropriate instead. The balance of the introduction is actually MUCH more formal and dry-- as it should be. I'm bluntly in linguistic terms, explaining how a new language developed through overwhelming diversity. It's another brick in the foundation of the story's underlying theme.

That theme, left to their own devices, the people will bond together... contrary to the government's wishes. It's an old story, Rocinha, Brazil and Kowloon Walled City, each excellent examples. Just like the core concepts of the American Revolution, in this story, the Second American Revolution, the people become one over a common oppressor.

Thanks everyone!

K2

 

[-K2-]

Just an update on this. After trying each version, I'm leaning toward @M. Robert Gibson 's suggestion with a reduced list title as @The Judge suggests, eliminating the EN dash as @Star-child had issue with... ***As to bold or placing the list title above (vs. inline), I'm thinking not. It makes the list feel more important than it is by making it stand out from the rest of the introduction; placing each item on a new line makes it even worse. Further, I fear it would look even more clumsy once the margins are brought in (some lines short, others having a carriage shift).

Here is what I don't want (shown at 11-pt. 4.5" text width):

Regional CASE P-say dialects include:
Sowfee-say (South Philadelphia)
V-tahk (New Venice (New York City))
Jeabe’ (New Jersey influenced areas)
Bawlmar (Baltimore region)
C-tahk/C-say/Chop/Carney (Homestead Capital/Circus (District of
Columbia surrounding))
Smugs – various cultural or regional pre-Gathering dialects and
slang still in use where a P-say direct replacement exists.

This is what I'm leaning toward:

Edit... to be fair, at the same width new issues arise, more so in standard 12pt. (which I don't have time to deal with this morning). It will require a 're-sort' of the list. I'll post that later.

Regional CASE P-say dialects include: Sowfee-say (South Philadelphia); V-tahk (New Venice (New York City)); Jeabe’ (New Jersey influenced areas); Bawlmar (Baltimore region); C-tahk/C-say/Chop/Carney (Homestead Capital/Circus (District of Columbia surrounding)); Smugs – various cultural or regional pre-Gathering dialects and slang still in use where a P-say direct replacement exists.

Thanks again for your help!

K2

 

[Ursa major]

A question: does the reader really need to know, at the beginning of the story, the names of all these dialects (or even of the existence of them)?

It isn't as if you are providing any other information about them, such as how different words and/or different pronunciations are used in the various areas, or why they are different, or anythign else. Surely the existence of dialects would become apparent if it became important to the story (either as plot or as giving the reader an example of the way your fictional world is.

I've never read a novel where the different dialects of the areas visited in that novel are listed anywhere (appendix or not), but perhaps someone has. It isn't as if different dialects are uncommon, even after more than a century of long distance broadcasting.

In the stories I've read, if a character does start saying something in a different dialect, this is mentioned (if it needs to be). Sometimes some of the dialect words are inserted into the dialogue (or into the narrative, if the the person using that dialect is a PoV character), but the usual views is that less is more in these cases.

As Star-child has said, you risk info dumping... perhaps even of information that is never needed in the story (which would make it an example of letting the reader know that the author has done their worldbuilding homework, something that is usually thought to be better shown (in the way the story plays out) than told.

Just my 2c.

 

[-K2-]

Thanks for the input @Ursa major ;

A question: does the reader really need to know, at the beginning of the story, the names of all these dialects (or even of the existence of them)?

What we see in the story (second chapter), is the protagonist who is fluent in the 'pidgin' (P-say) that dominates 63% of the new nation, encounter a new (to her) language used by the deuteragonist. Their encounters and interaction use that linguistic conflict to help propel their newfound relationship. That's the extent of 'a' dialect (Sowfee-say) use in the story (the side fact that the protagonist has made the effort to learn the pidgin (considering government attitudes), also has value).

Again, 'discussion of' P-say and these dialects is only mentioned in a 300 word introduction of an appendix glossary. Otherwise, in the story, it's simply used (dialogue) in metered amounts... the point that there are subsequently developed dialects, has value, regarding conflicting cultures.

That said, both the primary language (P-say) and the dialects (conversely, as they are fading), help demonstrate a natural cycle of coming together and pushing apart--toward equilibrium--multiple cultures forced together by the government with the intent of keeping them fractured. Instead, the people find a way to get along (on many issues, through many means), and use these newly developed common grounds to organize against that government... To put it as simply as I can.

In the story we don't have that 'told to us.' We have it 'shown to us' through many means, language one of. The story is not just about revolution, an oppressive government, and climate issues. It is also about racial/cultural bias, choosing the whole over self, democracy over authoritarian control (be it a gang or the government), etc., etc..

So, a brief mention of them in this novel's appendix, does nothing to affect the story. It explains what is encountered in the story, if the reader chooses to investigate deeper.

I hope that answers your question,

K2

Side note: In these appendix glossaries, we have some basic rules of use (for us English readers), then English pronunciations (used in the dialogue), and their translations by word. One glossary for P-say. One for Sowfee-say because of the extent it is used. In the second novel, Sowfee-say is not used so not included, but, the P-say glossary expands to include P-say grammar rules and spelling. In the third novel, each of the dialects is used as each area is visited (doubtful that glossaries will be developed for the reader since use will be minimal). But, their new alphabet and its use is revealed due to the significance of its development.

 

[tinkerdan]

With or without a glossary; If it is easy to understand I will tolerate it and likely pick up on it just as easily as it is easy to understand.
However if it is difficult to understand then even with the glossary I'd likely throw it off to the side until I felt I was willing to torture myself some more,
I suspect most other readers like myself will do the same.

 

[-K2-]

I've been warned here about this bad habit of mine to 'explain,' though I assume that meant 'justify.' I see that in my response to Ursa major (too late for edit)... so hopefully I can respond to your post without splainin' too much.

@tinkerdan ; That's a valid point, one that directly applies to the discussion with Ursa major. Thus far, alpha readers have picked up P-say rather quickly, Sowfee-say, the dialect, not so much. Exactly as it should be... so I recognize your point and have weighed how it is used (or hope I have).

P-say is a pidgin English. I expect if you have exposed yourself to various cultures or economic levels, you have experienced elisons, slang, and pidgins in one form or another. Since P-say is a pidgin language (based on English as the lexifier) meant to bridge communication divides, additions by smaller groups to differentiate themselves using their own slang dialect works against that goal... which is what these mentioned dialects do, and why I mention them.

So, the reader will hopefully find P-say familiar and quickly understandable, but dialects like Sowfee-say confusing... just as the protagonist does, as dialect users speak using a mix of English, P-say, and their own unique slang.

The best example I can come up with, kids and their slang. It's fine when they're just goofing around, but when they need to shout "fire," it doesn't work so well.

Thanks for your input,

K2