Fantasy Trope Archeology

[Venusian Broon]

I am currently re-reading Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar saga* and one of the ideas pique my interest.

A trope that is well known in the fantasy world, Feist has a thieves guild in one of the main cities, Krondor. Thieves guilds have a surprisingly long history in literature, appearing in a novel by Cervantes, I believe. Therefore since the appearance of the modern novel, more-or-less.

However Feist's thieves guild is headed by a mysterious, anonymous person named 'the Upright man'. Well, this instantly made me think of the Grey Fox in Bethesda's Elder Scrolls game Oblivion. A guild master whose identity no one knew, yet could control a guild of cut-throats, pick-pockets etc.

So Feist came from a DnD background and I know that the Elder Scrolls series also originated from people that came from the DnD world. So I was wondering does the trope of the mysterious secret guildmaster of the thieves come from an earlier source i.e. from the DnD world? Or is there even earlier fantasy source that this particular trope comes from?

Anyway, of course the Elder Scrolls came a good decade plus after Magician so they could have taken that idea off him.

Just curious for curiosity's sake.


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* For my sins. And because I got given the trilogy again for free. However, sometimes books you read as a fresh-faced 12 year old, you should just leave alone. Ach, at least it's very easy to read through very fast.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It may even be historical. I don't mean in the sense of an organization along guild lines as we see in so many stories, but there were of course criminal gangs going back centuries and some of them may have been run by individuals who liked to keep their identities a secret.

 

[Venusian Broon]

It may even be historical. I don't mean in the sense of an organization along guild lines as we see in so many stories, but there were of course criminal gangs going back centuries and some of them may have been run by individuals who liked to keep their identities a secret.

An excellent point. I tend to think of the 'tall flowers' of criminal gang leaders, like the Cray twins or Al Capone who would become infamous and get a lot of publicity, sometimes even courting publicity themselves.

I do think there have been organisations that have a 'cell-like' structure, so that if one cell is captured they cannot led to the revealing or capture of the people in the organisation up the chain. However the examples I can think of are political and terrorist organisations driven by ideology rather than financial interest.

The idea of a guild master being so secret does feel somewhat extreme for real life though!

In literature it will work of course, in fact I could see PKD (or Pratchett?) doing a thieves guild master so secret that the actual person themselves don't know that they are in fact the guildmaster.

 

[nixie]

Magician is my go to book when feeling down. I probably could write it word for word. Think it might be time for a reread.

The thieves guild does appear in a lot of fantasy but I don't remember anyone else having someone like the Upright Man.

 

[Toby Frost]

Formal guilds of criminals have always seemed unlikely to me ("I'd call this meeting to order if one of you hadn't stolen the gavel"), while large Mafia-type organisations are of course perfectly feasible provided that the numbers of people and infrastructure exist. I don't remember there really being criminals in Tolkien, at least not in that sense. Was there anything like that in, say, Conan or the Fafhrd books? I vaguely remember an Edwardian Alfred Rackham picture of a guild of robbers. I wonder if he was adapting a fairy story or a Victorian version of Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, or something like that.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've come across the term Upright Man in my historical researches, as a general title for a major gang leader (perhaps best thought of as something more like a mafia boss). I suspect the source was 17th/18th century, though I can't find my reference at the moment.

Additionally, though Feist wrote about his D&D adventures, when I read The Magician I found he'd put a lot of historical realism into the world building and social structures.

The idea of an Upright Man being secret historically - I'm not sure about that. An individual's reputation can be built on names or titles, or both. Thinking historically, I can't imagine every person in any criminal gang always knowing the actual name of the Upright Man they might happen to work for, as that might be dangerous to know.

 

[Toby Frost]

It seems an odd thing to do, unless the Upright Man would be sent in from some other area - otherwise he'd surely be recognised by his former colleagues. But that suggests a larger organisation with several branches.

The head of MI6 in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was called Control. Nobody seemed to know his real name.

 

[Pemry Janes]

It has been a long time since I read Magician but I believe some in the 'guild' do know his identity. Those are his intermediaries through which he directs the organization.

 

[The Judge]

I've come across the term Upright Man in my historical researches, as a general title for a major gang leader (perhaps best thought of as something more like a mafia boss). I suspect the source was 17th/18th century, though I can't find my reference at the moment.

It's Thieves Cant -- I'm pretty sure Thomas Middleton used it in The Roaring Girl which deals with the adventures of Moll Cutpurse, which is from 1611. Whether it was actually used by the underworld before then, or it was something he coined and it was then taken up by the underworld, much as gangsters might use expressions from The Godfather, I don't know.

 

[Venusian Broon]

It has been a long time since I read Magician but I believe some in the 'guild' do know his identity. Those are his intermediaries through which he directs the organization.

I've just read it, and it is only stated as a rumour that a few people know his identity.

But I mean you'd have to at the very least have that, otherwise how would such an organisation work?

There's more detail in the next book, Silverthorn of course.

 

[Brian G Turner]

But I mean you'd have to at the very least have that, otherwise how would such an organisation work?

Probably a big organization, with a few key personnel around the boss directing groups under them, who perhaps contract/work with other people and groups under them. When you're doing something dodgy, you only need to know the person immediately above who's paying you, not the boss at the very top of the food chain.

 

[nixie]

If memory serves me correctly the Upright Man mystery is revealed in one of the Krondor books.

 

[tachyon]

"Krovas" was the name of the leader of the thieves guild in Lankhmar in the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories.

 

[The Big Peat]

If memory serves me correctly the Upright Man mystery is revealed in one of the Krondor books.

It comes up most in the books based on the computer games iirc - I think its in one of them that he's revealed - but the identity of the Upright Men (and various of their ilk) and the workings of the Mockers are a running subplot through the Serpentwar series as well.

 

[Finch]

The upright man was used in Tudor times . A regimen rogues , was a criminal gang . A rogue was a gang member and the upright man was the leader . I believe the upright bit just meant he was higher up . In a Clockwork Orange , Anthony Burgess named his gang members as droogs , but in his glossary he translated it as friends . From a rogues point of view friend this might of been closer to their understanding of the word . The upright man could, maybe, be someone that is not consider to be criminal, but actually is . A local landowner , solicitor ?

 

[Venusian Broon]

It comes up most in the books based on the computer games iirc - I think its in one of them that he's revealed - but the identity of the Upright Men (and various of their ilk) and the workings of the Mockers are a running subplot through the Serpentwar series as well.

Talking about computer games, at least with the Gray Fox in Oblivion there is powerful magic that stops even the closest of accomplices from even attempting to figure out who the Fox really is.

(Although that makes me think that....

Spoiler: FOR A 13 YEAR OLD GAME

when you, the player, become the Gray Fox, you don't really drop out of people's memories

)

 

[The Big Peat]

Talking about computer games, at least with the Gray Fox in Oblivion there is powerful magic that stops even the closest of accomplices from even attempting to figure out who the Fox really is.

(Although that makes me think that....

Spoiler: FOR A 13 YEAR OLD GAME

when you, the player, become the Gray Fox, you don't really drop out of people's memories

)

Being a protagonist - the strongest known supernatural effect in any world!

 

[Star-child]

Is this really just a fantasy thing? Moriarty is another secret crime boss, as is the real life Meyer Lansky. This seems to be a normal feature of crime syndicates and the way wealthy people deal with illicit activity in general - through deniable connections to subordinates. It seems like the only way to head an organization composed entirely of unethical people.

Crime boss - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It makes sense that the actual boss of such an organization might sometimes be someone who wants to have it both ways: terrorize those beneath him while shielded by a generic crime boss title, and enjoy the benefits of outward respectability under his real name, which only those closest to him would know (or even suspect). While everybody else in the gang gets dirty and takes risk, he stays in his nice clean, safe mansion, raking in the proceeds.

Organized crime goes back for centuries, and to be organized there has to be some structure, some hierarchy, but I can't really imagine it being a guild structure, since their methods and aims are so different. Though guilds may have their trade secrets what they basically seek is an open role in society, to stand in the light and grow their influence. Criminal gangs must necessarily work in the shadows.

 

[Star-child]

Organized crime goes back for centuries, and to be organized there has to be some structure, some hierarchy, but I can't really imagine it being a guild structure, since their methods and aims are so different.

Criminals are not without a sense of irony in their naming conventions. Mafia aren't much like families, either.