Dream Sequence

[Lafayette]

I am in the process of writing a story of a woman healer. She is sent by the high mage to another township to help stamp out a plague. Along her way there she and her travel mate, John are attacked by orc-like creatures. She is saved by a handsome charsmatic robin-hood type character named Richard. Unfortunately, John is seriously wounded. She and John are taken to Richard's camp. Richard escorts the healer to Cherrytown.

Once there she spends her the day taking care of the sick. At night she finds a corner and falls asleep and starts dreaming.

What I'm trying to do is keep the reader in suspence weather John is going to survive or not, the healer's guilt in allowing John to come along and give the reader a glimps of her feelings towards Richard. I think this is a better idea than telling the reader what is going on, but executing this idea is proving difficult for me. I know that as a rule dreams are unfocused, but at the same time I don't want to totally confuse the reader.

Any ideas of how I can do this better are welcome. So far this is all I have written.

Dream Sequence​

Damn it, John! Why did I allow you to come along?

By the flickering flames of the campfire Tayanna examined John Planter’s wound. Witnessing many a wound as a healer, Tayanna still cringed seeing green pus oozing.

Now what am I supposed to do?”

Now what am I supposed to do?”

Now what am I supposed to do?”

Supposed to do?” Supposed to do?” Supposed to do?”

Swine’s spit he’s gorgeous. He’d make my sister envious. “Hello my name is Tayanna Wand and this is my travel mate, John Planter. Those eyes …. those eyes ….. Like emeralds . And where did he get those pearls for teeth?

“Leave this place,” answered a deep and accented voice. “He is right it isn’t safe staying here.” isn’t safe staying here …. isn’t safe staying here..

“I am glad to meet you,” he replied bowing and tipping his hat exposing a head of raven hair highlighted in blue.

Please follow me... follow follow me … me.. follow me... follow me...

Where to?

.. I wonder if is he a cat shifter? …. is he a cat shifter? Moves like cat

has the eyes of a feline… eyes of a feline … eyes of a feline… feline feline feline.

Trudging toward their destination the woods became darker, colder, and stiller. The only sound they heard was the hooting of owls. Owls … Owls …At last, they came to a stop before a tree truck more than ten feet wide covered with a tangle of green and brown vegetation.

My joints are killing me …. And I’m craving for sugar berries real bad.

Sugar berries.. . Sugar berries ….

Anon, they came to a dirt and grass floor forty or fifty feet wide brightly lit. Where the light came from Tayanna could not discern. What she could discern were scores of men occupied in numerous activities: sharpening swords, arrow fletching, cooking, eating, talking and sleeping. All were garbed in the browns and greens of the forest. In spite of the activity of the cave there was an aura of awe and serenity.

“This is what we call Sojourners Cavern…. where I call home. Please sit over there by the bundle of blankets

You are hungry I know. I will get you something to eat. Would you care for Grilled Steak Bordeauux, Beef a la Mode or perhaps a leg of lamb Nicecian style or more simply Three Legume Soup a la Dauphiny?”

Surely, you jest?

No, I do not jest Being Gaullon I insist on good food. To do less is not civilize.

I’ll try that leg of lamb. And, ah, do you have any Sugar Berries?”

He smiled back. I grave chocolate. Chocolate…. Chocolate …

 

[The Judge]

Lafayette, it's best not to use attachments in Critiques since some people won't want to open stuff, and it's not as easy to give feedback. I've therefore copied and pasted it into your post for you this time.


While I'm here, I have to confess I was thoroughly confused by this piece and had no idea what was going on or why, even having read your introduction which gave context for the dream. It wasn't helped by the fact that you've played fast and loose with grammar and punctuation, and you've gone overboard with an attempt at high-falutin' language which sits badly here. I don't know if all this is deliberate, but if so, for me it isn't working. If it isn't deliberate, you really do need to sort it the punctuation and grammar and perhaps rethink your word use.

To be frank, I think it's likely to be easiest if you simply have her sitting and reflecting on her guilt, concern and attraction rather than try and dress it up like this.

In any event, good luck with it.

 

[-K2-]

To 'my eye,' the repetitive passages come off more like an echo. Think of how you experience a dream, all in the first person... but, you recall a dream in third person. Anywho, here is how I have recently done it (not that it is a good way... just more food for thought to discount or consider).

To *DUm-Dum-dum,* info-dump in what I'm working on, I have a couple of chapters where my protagonist is remembering via dreams. In the first it is pointed out that she doesn't dream creatively (usually). Instead, reliving events. That one I use 3rd, or 3rd-omni exclusively (omni just her thoughts and feelings). For each part of the dream (four parts of four distinct years), I have a lead-in where she opens her eyes in the dream and the setting. A little background, then her direct memory. It then transitions from a critical point (turns her head as an example), and *poof* it's a year later where it begins again.

In the second dream, it is pointed out that 'while high on slouch,' her dreams become a muddled mess of many events/discussions/whatever. In that one, it's all in 1st person, but, where a number of conversations, facts, and history all combine to form a lecture being given by a man where she only sees his legs pacing back and forth, much like a child would (though she was an adult for all of those varied conversations). That allows me to keep the focus on the person issuing the facts, told just like a lecture. It's only at the end it has a radical shift where he directly addresses her.

K2

 

[Lafayette]

Lafayette, it's best not to use attachments in Critiques since some people won't want to open stuff, and it's not as easy to give feedback. I've therefore copied and pasted it into your post for you this time.


While I'm here, I have to confess I was thoroughly confused by this piece and had no idea what was going on or why, even having read your introduction which gave context for the dream. It wasn't helped by the fact that you've played fast and loose with grammar and punctuation, and you've gone overboard with an attempt at high-falutin' language which sits badly here. I don't know if all this is deliberate, but if so, for me it isn't working. If it isn't deliberate, you really do need to sort it the punctuation and grammar and perhaps rethink your word use.

To be frank, I think it's likely to be easiest if you simply have her sitting and reflecting on her guilt, concern and attraction rather than try and dress it up like this.

In any event, good luck with it.

Thank you for taking your time to criique my disjointed writing. In saying you were thoroughly confused by my piece you've answered part of my question.

I'll admit that my grammar and punctuation was fast and loose, but I thought that what I was trying to achieve justified breaking the rules. Also I didn't know how to employ the correct grammar and punctuation to express the haziness and disjointedness of dreams that's why I came here to this forum to learn.

What do you mean high-falutin' language? And why doesn't it sit well here?

You may be right it may be better and easier for her to sit and reflect, however right now that sounds boring. I will have to sit for awhile and meditate on it.

Again thank you.

P.S. Thanks for the heads up on the attachments.

 

[Lafayette]

To 'my eye,' the repetitive passages come off more like an echo. Think of how you experience a dream, all in the first person... but, you recall a dream in third person. Anywho, here is how I have recently done it (not that it is a good way... just more food for thought to discount or consider).

To *DUm-Dum-dum,* info-dump in what I'm working on, I have a couple of chapters where my protagonist is remembering via dreams. In the first it is pointed out that she doesn't dream creatively (usually). Instead, reliving events. That one I use 3rd, or 3rd-omni exclusively (omni just her thoughts and feelings). For each part of the dream (four parts of four distinct years), I have a lead-in where she opens her eyes in the dream and the setting. A little background, then her direct memory. It then transitions from a critical point (turns her head as an example), and *poof* it's a year later where it begins again.

In the second dream, it is pointed out that 'while high on slouch,' her dreams become a muddled mess of many events/discussions/whatever. In that one, it's all in 1st person, but, where a number of conversations, facts, and history all combine to form a lecture being given by a man where she only sees his legs pacing back and forth, much like a child would (though she was an adult for all of those varied conversations). That allows me to keep the focus on the person issuing the facts, told just like a lecture. It's only at the end it has a radical shift where he directly addresses her.

K2

Thanks for the input.

I am going to have to study more of what you're telling me (sometimes I'm a bit dense), nonetheless I do like your first person idea. The third person I will need to study more.

 

[The Judge]

I'll admit that my grammar and punctuation was fast and loose, but I thought that what I was trying to achieve justified breaking the rules. Also I didn't know how to employ the correct grammar and punctuation to express the haziness and disjointedness of dreams that's why I came here to this forum to learn.

To be honest, I can't see how using quotation marks only at the end of a sentence would express haziness or disjointedness -- for me it simply added confusion as I then wasn't sure if it was speech or not. And while having woods trudging towards their destination certainly does make for a somewhat uncanny dreamlike feel, I rather suspect this is a mistake and what you mean to say is that the people are trudging, not the trees. Punctuation is designed to make things easier to read and understand. By using it wrongly, deliberately or otherwise, you're making the passage harder to read and understand. Here, I really don't think it's doing you any favours at all. Grammar rules again help understanding, and while we often break them with less obvious effect on comprehension -- I'm sure everyone will know you meant the people were trudging -- it's important to do so from a position of knowing what you intend, why, and what the effect will be.

What do you mean high-falutin' language? And why doesn't it sit well here?

Anon, discern, garbed, aura of awe and serenity. All would be fine in the right setting -- though frankly you'd have to go some to find the right setting for "garbed". But coming after a line such as "I'm craving for sugar berries real bad" with its misuse of "for" and the "real bad" which is colloquial and chatty but is not correct English, the effect is to make these less-used words seem stiff and stilted and slightly bathetic. Overall, to my ear they give the impression that you're trying to write in a style which is more "literary" or what you think fantasy should be like, but it's not your natural voice.

For myself, I don't think having her reflecting on things would necessarily be boring, but a lot depends on how well it is done, of course.

 

[Lafayette]

T Punctuation is designed to make things easier to read and understand.
By using it wrongly, deliberately or otherwise, you're making the passage harder to read and understand. . Grammar rules again help understanding, and while we often break them with less obvious effect on comprehension -- I'm sure everyone will know you meant the people were trudging -- it's important to do so from a position of knowing what you intend, why, and what the effect will be.

Anon, discern, garbed, aura of awe and serenity. All would be fine in the right setting -- Overall, to my ear they give the impression that you're trying to write in a style which is more "literary" or what you think fantasy should be like, but it's not your natural voice.

For myself, I don't think having her reflecting on things would necessarily be boring, but a lot depends on how well it is done, of course.

Thanks again for your comments.

When I submitted this piece I was tired and in a bit of a hurry and sloppier than I meant to be. I was in a hurry Like for some literary input. In fact, I submitted more of it than I intended too.

Like in real life we don't speak proper grammar I thought (unconsciously) that this was even more true in a dream-like state. Perhaps I am wrong. For the record I am not against proper grammar. I struggle in this regard and hope that my old friend can assist me in this area.

I thought anon, discern, garbed were common words especially in fantasy and besides I like them. I also thought inventing words and phrases (an aura of awe) were some of the things that readers expected of writers. For instance: Robert A. Heinlein's "I groc."

You mentioned natural voice. What is a natural voice and what is my natural voice?

 

[-K2-]

I am going to have to study more of what you're telling me (sometimes I'm a bit dense), nonetheless I do like your first person idea. The third person I will need to study more.

Well, first off I'm saying that your repeated phrases (the first being, "Now what am I supposed to do?”') reads to me like you're trying to make the thought/voice read like an echo. If so, I don't think it's needed. I've had a lot of dreams in my 29 years (okay, maybe I'm a bit older ), but never did I hear an echo in a dream. Personally, just MY opinion, I don't care for it. However, if you feel you want it, I'd instead simply state 'that the other voice echoed with each response,' and leave it at that without the repeated text.

As to 1st person, 3rd person, or 3rd Omni, here is one of thousands of sites that explain what those writing 'Point of View' styles mean: The Ultimate Point of View Guide: Third Person Omniscient vs. Third Person Limited vs. First Person ...if that site doesn't explain it well for you, perform a google search for 'writing point of view viewpoint.'

That said, I actually mis-spoke in my rush to answer regarding POV for the second chapter I mention (perhaps @The Judge could correct me based on what I'm about to say).

I said first person, since it is all in Kae's head from her point of view... but that's not true. It begins with a 3rd Limited; a narrator telling us briefly about how Kae dreams and what this dream was formed from. It then abruptly transitions into a lecture by an undisclosed character... a lecture just like you would hear it, by a professor in a classroom. At the end of the lecture, the speaker/character suddenly stops and addresses Kae directly, scolding her. It ends with a single line back in 3rd Limited where Kae wakes up, gasps, sighs, then goes back to sleep.

Hope that helps. If I didn't explain the echo part well, just say and I'll try to clarify.

K2

 

[The Judge]

Like in real life we don't speak proper grammar I thought (unconsciously) that this was even more true in a dream-like state.

I can't say that's something that's occurred to me, but for the record I'm not against your characters talking and thinking in ways that aren't correct grammatically whether dreaming or otherwise. You're right. We all say things such as "real bad" at times, and we use dangling participles (which is what your "Trudging" is**). In dialogue and very close POV narrative these things can be fine; in more distant narrative, for me, they're not so good. Grammar is something a lot of people struggle with, so you're not alone. I'm almost entirely self-taught, and I still get things wrong. If there's ever something specific which you don't understand, do please ask.

I thought anon, discern, garbed were common words especially in fantasy

I can't say I've come across them that often in the fantasy I read, but even if they were common in fantasy, that's no reason by itself to put them in your writing.

and besides I like them.

That is an excellent reason to use more esoteric words, and life would be very boring if we didn't occasionally bring beloved words -- like "esoteric" in my case! -- into our writing. But... The words we use must fit the scene and the character(s) we are writing. At present I'm writing short stories in which a 6 year old girl is the main character, so although I have a lot of adjectives at my disposal for describing characters, "lovely" "nice" and "nasty" are getting used, not eg "gorgeous" "magnificent" and "hideous".

I also thought inventing words and phrases (an aura of awe) were some of the things that readers expected of writers.

If it is expected, I missed the memo on that one! By all means coin words and use flowery phrases. This is fine -- I've done it myself. But it's a question of fitting the words and phrases into the feel of the writing, and this for me is where you're going wrong. You think these words have to be included because they say "fantasy" somehow. They don't.

You mentioned natural voice. What is a natural voice and what is my natural voice?

I'd define "natural voice" as the one you use in everyday conversation with friends. Do you say "Anon" and "garbed" to them when you're speaking normally? If so, then clearly I'm wrong and this is your natural voice. But to my mind it's coming over as unnatural -- the rest of your writing doesn't give the impression that you use old-fashioned words of this kind normally, because the style of the rest of it is so ungrammatical and colloquial.

My advice, for what it's worth: instead of thinking "I'm writing fantasy, I have to use words which fantasy readers will expect" just write as you would speak, as if you were talking to a friend. Then when you edit, tidy up the grammar in the narrative sections and perhaps think whether there are different words you can use for eg adjectives -- but always use words you might use, not ones you've looked up and don't know very well.

That said, I actually mis-spoke in my rush to answer regarding POV for the second chapter I mention (perhaps @The Judge could correct me based on what I'm about to say).

Ha! No point asking me about POV!

By the way, just to be contrary, I didn't mind the repeated phrases on their own -- they didn't seem like echoes to me, but the kind of worrying where the same words and phrases go round and round in your head, and for me they served to show how much is going through her mind while she's dreaming. However, their use does border on excessive, and, worse to my mind, they unbalance the plain narrative sections -- the tone of the whole piece is out of kilter, which is perhaps what you wanted for the disjointed feel, but which doesn't work for me. Personally, I'd go easy on the repetitions, but also change the plain sections so the whole has one unifying voice.

Also by the way, it's just occurred to me that dream sequences I've written have been in present tense, standing out from the surrounding work which is all past tense. I'm also using present tense for some flashback scenes I'm currently writing. Perhaps see if that gives you the destabilising effect you're after.


** Dangling participles are where the subject of the participle (most often a verb ending in "-ing") and the subject of the the verb of the rest of the sentence don't agree. So with "Trudging toward their destination the woods became darker, colder, and stiller" "Trudging" is the participle and its subject must be the people; but the subject of the verb "became" is the woods, so the two don't match. To be grammatically correct you can:

• change the sentence so the two verbs agree eg "Trudging toward their destination, they found the woods becoming darker, colder and more still" ("stiller" isn't correct)
• remove the participle eg "As they trudged towards their destination, the woods become darker..."

Another common problem with participles is where they don't agree in time with the rest of the sentence, and you fall foul of this one, too with
"Witnessing many a wound as a healer, Tayanna still cringed seeing green pus oozing." -- she's not witnessing many wounds at the time when she's cringing at one of them. To correct it you can:

• put the participle into past tense eg "Despite [you need this or a similar word to set up the necessary opposition of the two halves of the sentence] having witnessed many a wound..."
• remove the participle eg "Though she'd witnessed many a wound..."

Does that help?

 

[tinkerdan]

Just so that you know.
I have gotten from this a sense of someone drugged rather than someone asleep. They should be particularly paranoid after this; as to what someone might have given them.

Even so this is more of what those suspense thriller movies do rather than what happen to a drugged person. This is that scene where the camera is out of focus and possibly jerking while the protagonist or drugged individual is stumbling around or tied to a chair and going in and out of consciousness and then the sound track starts repeating things just like this.

Anyway I'm just weird this way and it might be just me; however, it might be something to consider.

If you really want it to read this way then I suggest a bit more creativity, possibly toss in some bit of poetic rhythm to it all.

 

[Lafayette]

Just so that you know.
I have gotten from this a sense of someone drugged rather than someone asleep.
Anyway I'm just weird this way and it might be just me; however, it might be something to consider.
If you really want it to read this way then I suggest a bit more creativity, possibly toss in some bit of poetic rhythm to it all.

This is kind of funny and interesting at the same time for now I have two thoughts on this subject. One: I didn't think or know that this came off as a person being drugged. Two: if I go with your observation I might use the excuse (that later is mentioned or implied in the story) that the sugar berries have side affects one being hallucinating while dreaming.

On another note I like your idea of turning it in a poetic rhythm to it all. However, I'm not sure if I'm that good of a writer, but that hasn't stop me from making a fool of myself before. You may be sorry for suggesting this for your fellow critiquers may scold you and ask, "What have you done, Tinkerdan?"

 

[Lafayette]

Lafayette said:

Like in real life we don't speak proper grammar I thought (unconsciously) that this was even more true in a dream-like state.

I can't say that's something that's occurred to me, but for the record I'm not against your characters talking and thinking in ways that aren't correct grammatically whether dreaming or otherwise. You're right. We all say things such as "real bad" at times, and we use dangling participles (which is what your "Trudging" is**).

On reflection this is something that annoys about my college education. The college insisted that I take algebra. I didn't like algebra and didn't think I would need it. I still feel this way. However, I wished that when I took English 101 and 102 that the instructors taught me about participles and predicate verbs.

If there's ever something specific which you don't understand, do please ask.

Thank you I may take you up on that offer.

I thought anon, discern, garbed were common words especially in fantasy

I can't say I've come across them that often in the fantasy I read, but even if they were common in fantasy, that's no reason by itself to put them in your writing.

When you put it in this context you make sense

and besides I like them
.
That is an excellent reason to use more esoteric words, and life would be very boring if we didn't occasionally bring beloved words -- like "esoteric" in my case! -- into our writing. But... The words we use must fit the scene and the character(s) we are writing.

This something I try to do. Evidently this time around I failed. More study is required.

I also thought inventing words and phrases (an aura of awe) were some of the things that readers expected of writers.

If it is expected, I missed the memo on that one!

I thought it was implied.

But it's a question of fitting the words and phrases into the feel of the writing, and this for me is where you're going wrong. You think these words have to be included because they say "fantasy" somehow. They don't.

I haven't thought of it this way. I'll have to think of this some more.

You mentioned natural voice. What is a natural voice and what is my natural voice?

I'd define "natural voice" as the one you use in everyday conversation with friends. Do you say "Anon" and "garbed" to them when you're speaking normally?

No I don't and again you make sense.

...just write as you would speak, as if you were talking to a friend.

I understand your point, but what if my natural speech is boring? Isn't one of the beauties of what writing is suppose to be about is getting away from the 'ho hum common'?

By the way, just to be contrary,

Go ahead be contrary. That's what I want.

the tone of the whole piece is out of kilter, which is perhaps what you wanted for the disjointed feel, but which doesn't work for me. Personally, I'd go easy on the repetitions, but also change the plain sections so the whole has one unifying voice.

In my experience my dreams (which I have trouble remembering) are disjointed and don't make sense. I may have also got these ideas from tv and movies.

Does that help?

Some of it does. Thank you

 

[tinkerdan]

I don't think that I have any problem with word choices.
However I have a sort of outsider POV about that anyway.

In my first novel-the amazon sample for some reason only had the first 6 pages of the first chapter. And with that and the description there was at least one reader(of the sample) who somehow decided that the vocabulary of my main character was way beyond her age and capability. Mind you everything that was available did not indicate the age of the character and only much later in the book is there mention that someone at one point thought she was 13 and it was later discovered that she had to be at least 16 and possibly older--however there are also a number of circumstances that make that character uniquely different to a point that it is ridiculous for someone to make such a statement.

The point is: this is something you have to keep in mind and realize that you are going to have some readers that are going to make wild assumptions based on just a few paragraphs, about your character, and there are likely ways to guide the readers away from these assumptions; however it is possibly going to be at the cost of the voice and style and this is only a choice that the writer can make.

As far as dreams go:
You can do these any way you want.
I don't think that you can do a dream justice on paper--because if we wrote them down as they really happen they would be nonsense and usually what we do write down is how our brain has interpreted them as we wake up. In writing you are trying to give the reader a great reading experience and too much nonsense could damage the fragile relationship.

However if you want to give it some credibility you might find something related to this:

Recurring dream - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Study recurring dreams and try to plug your dream into something like that.

The hardest part is making the dream mean something within the novel--to justify even putting it there.

In my second novel I start with a dream--which everyone warned me against--I'm stubborn sometimes--However, the dream was playing on events in the first novel that were traumatic and things that the character was going to have to work on in this novel. That became the justification for the dream--however I tried to make the dream as short and concise as possible because this theme would show up later in more reasonable form.

You might ask yourself how the theme of the dream fits the rest of the story and whether you are making the best use of it for that theme.

And, of course, make it as short as possible--which might mean culling out some of that repetition.

 

[Lafayette]

The point is: this is something you have to keep in mind and realize that you are going to have some readers that are going to make wild assumptions based on just a few paragraphs, about your character,

I have had something similar to this happen to me when I wrote a poem or a song. They heard something different than I intended. In fact, on an occasion they heard something grander than I imagined which was kind of embarrassing

however it is possibly going to be at the cost of the voice and style and this is only a choice that the writer can make.

I'll try to remember this.

I don't think that you can do a dream justice on paper

I'm beginning to get the same impression.--

because if we wrote them down as they really happen they would be nonsense and usually what we do write down is how our brain has interpreted them as we wake up.

I think that was a little of what I was trying to do and I don't think it worked.

In writing you are trying to give the reader a great reading experience

That's what I'm trying to do.

and too much nonsense could damage the fragile relationship.

Understood.

Recurring dream - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Study recurring dreams and try to plug your dream into something like that.

I did go there and and it doesn't seem fit what I trying to do. Tayanna has a number of dreams, but they're not re-occurring dreams.

The hardest part is making the dream mean something within the novel--to justify even putting it there.

This something I'm trying to do. I'm also trying it to give some expense, mystery, and information to the story.

You might ask yourself how the theme of the dream fits the rest of the story and whether you are making the best use of it for that theme.

Now that I think of it one of the themes of the book is guilt. Thanks for bringing this to my attention this will help me to focus.

And, of course, make it as short as possible--which might mean culling out some of that repetition.

I'm already working on it.

Thanks again for your insight.

 

[Hedgerow]

As a fan of the surreal, I don't see any problem with alternating florid, multi-syllabic prose with the plain kind of talk that you hear every day, especially if you're trying to illustrate an everywoman attempting to fathom mysterious messages coming to her through her subconscious. Just be aware that you're doing it.

 

[Lafayette]

As a fan of the surreal, I don't see any problem with alternating florid, multi-syllabic prose with the plain kind of talk that you hear every day, especially if you're trying to illustrate an everywoman attempting to fathom mysterious messages coming to her through her subconscious. Just be aware that you're doing it.

I'm not sure if what Tayanna is experiencing are mysterious messages, but rather feelings and events that have been occurring around her.