Story Advancement & Entertainment ~ A Question...

[-K2-]

So, let's see, how can I prove I'm as much of a rookie as I am? I know, ask a stupid question when half-asleep.

I get it... if it doesn't advance the story, adding to it, then delete it. Okay, realizing that, I could glean a story down to where it reads like a table of contents. Since no one will read that, I also need to keep it entertaining and interesting. Knowing that, it means I need to make the entertaining parts advance the story to reach an ideal balance and vice versa. So, I get it... or think I do. And yes, I remember the whole 'kill your darlings' thread.

Less a question, more seeking thoughts and comments to possibly turn on the lights, but how do you make that judgement call as to when it's too blunt, or too frivolously entertaining?

Past my poor writing, I suspect if most of you read my stuff, certain parts I know up front you'd label as, 'too much tell, not enough show.' Meaning, too blunt. Other areas I'm sure would be labeled as violent or obscene... err I mean, too entertaining. So, I try to make the info-dumping more story, and the psycho-analysis, action, and smut have some point to it, setting up situations, developing personal relationships, and character building.

I'm wondering, what some of you might do to make that judgement call, or if you have any anecdotes that might give me some ideas I hadn't considered as I edit my work?

Thanks for any thoughts you care to share.

K2

 

[Brian G Turner]

Daft question, but do you read much fiction? As I mentioned recently in another thread, reading a lot of fiction can give a lot of context to a lot of different writing questions, especially the ways that different authors handle the same things differently.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Unless you are supremely confident in your abilities or are actually brilliant first time at this writing malarky, my guess is that, to answer your question, you won't be able to see the forest because of the trees.

Your judgement calls will improve with experience, and that can be helped from continuing to write and also anaylsing other peoples writing, but the best way, I think, is to get a reasonably large number of good beta readers/"content editors" to tell them their thoughts on your work. You do need a few - we are all fickle with out tastes, so someone's favourite bit may be anothers 'throw the book against the wall' moment. If all of your betas pinpoint the same passages, you probably have a problem with them. If there is a divergence in views on other parts, then I think it's reasonable to suggest that it's up to you if you want to keep them in your style or not.

Anyway, to get those betas, best to get a complete draft that you're happy being reviewed first. Don't get caught up too much about the worry, it will just slow you down.

 

[Toby Frost]

I agree with Brian on this: the best thing to do is to read a lot of books, especially modern ones. 1984 is a work of genius, but nobody today would be able to get away with the huge infodump in the middle (at least, I hope not).

It’s very hard to give advice on this, as it’s one of those “you know it when you see it” things. Generally speaking, I think world-building stuff is less obvious when it’s stated as applying to individuals rather than a general statement about the setting. Instead of writing “Nobody could leave the city without showing ID”, depicting a character briefly showing ID to the guards as they leave the city will set up the presumption that this applies to everyone, which will stand until rebutted by someone not having to do so. Nobody in Blade Runner ever says that only policemen can use flying cars, but as the only flying cars we see in detail are police cars, I assume this to be the case. It doesn’t hugely matter whether this is a law or just expense (can rich people afford their own flying cars?) because either way, it adds to the sense of an oppressive, unequal society.

I think it is safe to assume as a writer that you find your setting much more interesting than the readers will, and that they need to be told less than you might think to get the hang of it. I actually had a whole future history worked out explaining why Space Captain Smith lived in a comically Victorian space empire, but it just doesn’t really matter. What matters is what he’s doing now, and that it’s consistent. Vague references to “the Tyranny” or “the Golden Era” are often sufficient. It’s worth mentioning that full explanations of hinted backstory can weaken, not strengthen the setting (like that nonsense about the Force being in blood cells or something, in The Phantom Menace).

As for sex and violence, if you’re over thirty, it’s probably safe to assume that someone is writing something with a lot more of it than you’ve put in – but less is still more. It’s probably best used as a “special effect”, or else it become dreary or (worse case scenario) looks as if the author is trying too hard. The mention in 1984 of “Did you see the executions on the telescreen yesterday, Smith?” is much more powerful than a blood-and-guts description of it all.

Personally, my feeling about being “entertaining” is that, unless you are making literal jokes in the text or you are writing a particularly didactic or poetic novel, most entertainment comes from pushing the story forward. A large proportion of world-building and characterization will come from this. But I agree that only reading and practice is the way to get a feel for it.

 

[Boneman]

Write it, set it aside for 3 months. When you re-read it, you will see boring interludes, interludes that make no sense, interludes that make you wince and so on, and so on. Then you edit them all out. Then you let another person read it, make notes (but not necessarily change it) and see their comments. Maybe let an editor see it. After a year or so, (or more!!) of getting other opinions on your re-writes, you will have the tight, entertaining novel you always wanted. Of course when you read it 5 years later you'll find minor black holes and things that have occurred to you.

"I'm not a very good writer, but I'm an excellent re-writer." James Mitchener, Pulitzer prize, 40 novels.

 

[The Judge]

I'm with Toby on this. Unless you're writing comedy, or you're aiming for a more literary work which will get plaudits from the literati, you shouldn't be having passages that are nothing more than "entertaining" whether frivolous or otherwise.

Story, character, setting. Those to my mind are the three important steps to attaining the holy grail of good writing. Concentrate on those. Move the story forward, but by means of character first and foremost -- whether action or dialogue -- with setting (in which I'd include backstory, location description, and general atmosphere) used judiciously to enhance the story, all wrapped up in good prose. That's entertaining in my book -- aka gripping and spell-binding.

How to achieve it? Prune heavily. A line doesn't need to advance the plot, but if it doesn't it should throw light on character or add to atmosphere. If it doesn't do any of the three, then question why it's there, and if in doubt, dump it.

It is possible to take so much off that instead of removing flab, you're cutting into muscle, or simply making the prose read not quite as well as you'd like -- a story also needs room to breathe. I've seen that in my own work where I've had to cut and cut to achieve a stated word count, so there are semi-colons instead of "and"s or a complete lack of adjectives and adverbs, which is fine if you're Hemingway but doesn't suit my style. One way to help avoid that (other than avoiding strict word counts!) is to leave the piece for a while and come back to it weeks later. If it then feels too choppy and staccato, add tiny bits, just to give it air. But don't pad.

Perhaps it's time to put more work up in Critiques, if there's something in particular that's worrying you?

 

[Phyrebrat]

Echoing what’s been said above which is all great advice. When you come to edit, (And even when you find the right balance), I always try to make sure there’s a sense of musicality to the clause. Not every line but - for example - sometimes choose a different word to get a nice rhythm.

It’s a dangerous line to walk though and can come off as self-indulgent and pretentious but it’s another thing to think about.

pH

 

[The Judge]

Yes! I'm not at all musical, but I have a sense of rhythm when it comes to words, and when I've had to prune too heavily it's usually that which has been lost -- throwing the metrical baby out with the redundant bathwater.

And it's not just choosing the best word, it's choosing the best order for the words, both to give life to the prose and, in dialogue, to enhance characterisation.

 

[The Big Peat]

Standard two stock responses without much thinking about this -

1) Anyone who has an even mostly fool proof method for recognising where to do this that other people can apply easily is a millionaire in the waiting
2) The best encapsulation of how to approach this I've seen comes from Terry Rossio's Reader Rules and it is thus:

"#36. Every single line must either advance the plot, get a laugh, reveal a character trait, or do a combination of two -- or in the best case, all three -- at once."

Relax line for paragraph or whatever, and laugh for emotional response, because books not movies, and you're roughly there. Which means maybe the best answer to your problem isn't "When can I get away with this thing that's solely entertaining/getting visceral responses" and "How can I add enough plot and character to these moments that they have to be there".

 

[-K2-]

Well thank you everyone for the detailed responses. I don't expect or perhaps even want what I write to suit everyone. I'm of the opinion, if everyone likes it--not expecting to write a literary masterpiece--it means I wrote an inconsequential bit of generic fluff. I'd rather sacrifice a few readers positive reviews for a number of people who set it down, finished, unable to stop reading it, now concerned-or-excited about their own future because I wrote something that touched them in some way... No, I'm not talking about the smut parts.

@Toby Frost 's mention of avoiding explicit detail, I think I have refined, since most of my readers have all commented that 'I implied vast amounts of X,Y,Z, without ever saying it.' That X-Z, naturally, their own inference. I'd prefer the reader interject their own best/worst scenario 'reflexively,' because I gave them a place to do it. I can't know a specific reader's best/worst thing, nor can I write one thing which impacts all equally. I can only prod them to look inside and determine it for themselves--kind of a room-101 moment, I suspect.

I've read EACH of your responses twice and will do so again each time I need some reinforcement. Bluntly, each serious thread on this forum I've started, and others, I actually do so already regularly. This forum and you folks have advanced my skills significantly... and I'm grateful.

@The Judge ; regarding something presented to be critiqued, nope, not yet. Roughly three months ago, I received some generous comments regarding my writing. Along with connecting the reader to the character better, also came comments of; too many verbs in a clause, too many adv/adj, yet most of all in PM's, how the reader noted that it was difficult applying the correct verb/noun combinations, due to my poor phrasing. So, I stopped writing/editing and haven't since. In that time, I've studied the applicable aspects, looked back at much older work (which makes me cringe, hehe), edited a bit here or there of it, to see if I've learned--and even investigated deeper things: https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/10330/page-400#post-2367295 .

So, I've accomplished nothing directly regarding my work. This thread is meant to get my mind focused, and then it's back to editing from the beginning.

Thanks everyone for your input and help,

K2

 

[sknox]

I agree with K2 on this. All the advice about pacing, detail, conflict, and all those other lovely nouns assumes the writer can tell quality from dross. @Venusian Broon gets it right, imo: practice, practice, practice. It's very much like developing an ear in music. Some people are born to it--these have clearly sold their soul to the devil--but most people have to work at it and most work at it their entire lives. All the advice is there and is sound; the trick is to internalize it so that it's there at your fingertips as you write.

There's knowing what to avoid and what to develop, knowing it in the abstract. You can't very well make use of it when you don't even know about it. You can spot that sort of writer, especially excerpts I see posted in FB groups and the like. Shudderingly bad.

Then there's what I call a checklist level of knowledge. You know the points--heck, maybe you even have an actual checklist--but it's not fully internalized yet, so you still write scenes that are badly paced or disjointed or whatever. You do have that checklist, however, and you can spot your fumbles in the edits. The advice items come into play during revision.

Then there's internalized knowledge, that level of knowing that the Sons of Satan are born with and seem to do naturally and gracefully. Maybe we don't rise to that level (we still have our souls!), but we now have that feeling. We can tell, even if we can't always describe to others, when something is working and when it isn't, and we even know how to polish the rough edges. We write fewer drafts between First and Finished. This happens at different points for different writers. Maybe some just rent there souls, I dunno. I should look into that.

Anyways. I'll add one piece of practical advice. Do more than just get beta readers. Join a critique group. One of the more valuable things I did was to be in a local critique group (I joined some online ones as well). The exercise of critiquing other people taught me not so much what to look for as how to look. It also taught me there are many levels of critiquing and many levels of being harsh or kind. Doing that over and over helped me become a more objective editor of my own work, which weirdly has helped me be more confident about my own work.

 

[The Judge]

Roughly three months ago, I received some generous comments regarding my writing. Along with connecting the reader to the character better, also came comments of; too many verbs in a clause, too many adv/adj, yet most of all in PM's, how the reader noted that it was difficult applying the correct verb/noun combinations, due to my poor phrasing. So, I stopped writing/editing and haven't since. In that time, I've studied the applicable aspects, looked back at much older work (which makes me cringe, hehe), edited a bit here or there of it, to see if I've learned

Sorry to hear you've stopped writing and major editing -- I hope you get back into the groove soon. Meanwhile, if there's anything I might be able to help with on the verbs/verb-noun front, just ask.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned with my own writing is that simplicity rules.

That means if the story demands a character simply goes from A to B, they need to simply go from A to B.

When new to writing, on the other hand, it can be an overwhelming temptation to write about the importance and background of both A and B; have perhaps have an amusing or other interesting character moment happen on the way - and if that drags add some exciting distraction to keep the reader entertained; maybe switch to another character for a perspective on A and/or B; or otherwise try to explain to the reader why it's really useful to know something about A and B and why going from A to B is so important. All of which is completely unnecessary, bloats the story, kills the pacing, strains reader patience, and really does otherwise undermine a story.

 

[Star-child]

K2, you are largely living in a theoretical world, frequently talking about what you are writing and almost never presenting the writing itself. I think I found maybe ten sentences you've posted in Critiques.

Consider putting your writing in the real world. It sounds like you have multiple completed works - please post some samples that illustrate your concerns.

 

[tinkerdan]

I try to be hyper-aware of modifiers such as adverbs and adjectives.
We use such modifiers a lot in speech; however when put on paper they lose the emphasis that we naturally place on them and the power behind them is lost in translation.

Seek these out and try to find a single verb or noun that works without a modifier and it will enhance your writing.
One of the major problems I have with many of the modifiers or even some qualifiers is that they make a written sentence weak, and when you are in narrative about a character description or action such weakness transfers over to the character. More direct or specific words give the character or the action more power of definitive nature and add to the character agency.

Unless you are describing a character who is weak, try not to let the narrator weaken them. In action it tends to drag it down and makes it sound passive.

Here are some examples of weak words.

Five weak words to avoid—and what to use instead

Weak words can sneak into our writing anywhere, anytime—and when they do, they destroy the power of our work.

qz.com

There are many more.
Examples of qualifiers,

Qualifiers: Rules and Examples

What is qualifier? A qualifier is a word that limits or enhances another word’s meaning. Qualifiers affect the certainty and specificity of a…

www.grammarly.com

You don't want to get rid of them all--some times you want a character to be weak or waffle-y; because they are uncertain at that moment.

However the distant cousin to this problem is when you have these and you also change the order of object and subject and then the entire sentence is hard to read and quite often passive.

A little something on passive voice.

Passive Voice: When to Avoid It and When to Use It

The passive voice is often maligned by teachers and professors as a bad writing habit. Or, to put that in the active voice: Teachers and…

www.grammarly.com

I see both of these problem coming up a lot in peoples writing--it is often because it reflects the way we speak.

Being aware of, and correcting these, will start showing up in your speech.

 

[-K2-]

Sorry to hear you've stopped writing and major editing -- I hope you get back into the groove soon. Meanwhile, if there's anything I might be able to help with on the verbs/verb-noun front, just ask.

Thanks for the offer, but stopping was a good thing to do. I needed the time to investigate those points, try to understand them, and then determine how to apply them. Don't misunderstand, I still worked on other bits, studied and so on. Yet I saw no point in editing work incorrectly, to then need to go back and correct the corrections.

Just this morning, on another writing forum I'm a member of where I post those works for review, I even initiated a thread inspired by here and some of the lessons I've learned. That thread pertained to editing, cutting sentences/paragraphs/pages that didn't advance a story, and I used one of my old works as an example. An old 20k-word novella of mine, while practicing my editing, I realized that it was taking me too much time to move words, phrases, rewrite this or that, etc.. IOW, to save 2 words out of 10. My solution? Rewrite the whole thing. Keep the story, the scenes, and so on... yet rewrite it along side the other which will 'save a LOT of time.' That's how much I've improved since its creation.

My point in the thread, if I can sacrifice 20k words to write the same story, the other members might want to consider losing a line or two.

So, the stoppage was needed.

Thanks everyone else for the additional suggestions to consider and thanks @tinkerdan for the specific links. I'm learning.

So I win... sucking out your brains to expand my own. "Call me Zombie... err Ishmael, sorry."

K2

 

[Brian G Turner]

My solution? Rewrite the whole thing.

This can be such a dreaded but necessary solution.

 

[Venusian Broon]

This can be such a dreaded but necessary solution.

Dreaded?! When it dawns on you that it's necessary, it's a great release - I love doing this! What's the point of re-writing, shuffling and moving about words on something that just isn't going to work.

 

[Dragonlady]

i'm actually looking forward to rewrites /significant edits of my current story, makes the 1st draft much more freeing

 

[-K2-]

This can be such a dreaded but necessary solution.

Dreaded?! When it dawns on you that it's necessary, it's a great release - I love doing this! What's the point of re-writing, shuffling and moving about words on something that just isn't going to work.

Eggzactly. The way I put it in the other forum was:
...Twenty thousand words written, wasted--all so I can write twenty thousand more--and all I'll end up with is the same story--but it won't be. The reason it won't be the same story, is that the current writing tells it so poorly, the great story is lost in the telling. So, it will be the same plot, characters, and events, but the retelling will hopefully make it so the reader can't help but read it to the end... more so, enjoy doing it....

Anywho, @Star-child posed an invitation to post more here (unable to find other bits I've posted for critiques). So, I'll ask @The Judge this: I have a thousand word story I considered submitting to Kraxon. Only my A/B readers on that other forum have seen it (which might disqualify it right off). If I posted it here in 'Critiques' or in the 'Writing Group' for comments, would that disqualify it as well?

(JftR: I can't imagine that it's of a high enough standard, or perhaps even the right genre, so the point may be moot)

K2