linking up/short chapters

[Dragonlady]

Anyone else have issues linking scenes up? My first chapter is very nearly 2000 words, the second is only about 1600, but I'm struggling to add to it. These two are both scene setting/introducing the reader to the world and in particular certain aspects of it before the revelation in chapter 3.

I'm now about 16,000 or so words in and have a number of scenes or sets of scenes of about 1000 words - too short for a whole chapter - and I'm struggling to work out how to link it up without adding unnecessary padding. Any words of wisdom welcome!

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

Do a Terry Pratchett and get rid of chapters?

 

[tinkerdan]

I'm thinking a chapter can be as few words as it needs to convey the complete scene. I've seen some effective one sentence chapters.

You say 16000 words--is there more coming or is this a short story.
Short stories don't need chapters so if you can find a way to make logical scene breaks then try no chapters with scene breaks, and that should give some indication of what type of work you need to do to make the whole story flow evenly.

If there is more coming beyond the 16000 words I'd say you should finish and then worry about cutting and fitting things in.

I wrote my first novel and published it with some very long chapters.
Later I decided that I could make more chapters and I'd be able to make the timeline more linear than it was and so I did and republished.

You might want to finish it and go through and avoid having to republish and re-sort some scenes later.

 

[Dragonlady]

Thanks! It's the start of a novel. Main purpose of chapters at this stage is to help me navigate, and to remember to fill stuff out. Chapter 2 is annoying me but I am leaving it for a redrafting.

It's also about how to link stuff, so I've got 1,000 words of stuff, then another scene that doesn't follow directly on from it. I don't want it to get bitty, or to add random padding.

Rereading earlier stuff helps give me ideas sometimes. I did that today and had a good idea for a 500 word scene that has follow ons I can thread through later scenes.

It's partly as I've written some stuff out of order.

 

[Brian G Turner]

If you haven't finished your first draft yet then worry about it later - get that finished, then you'll have a better idea of how to link up your scenes.

 

[CTRandall]

I'd say you should finish and then worry about cutting and fitting things in.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I finished my first novel a couple of months ago and, in the next-to-last draft, I ended up splitting a couple of chapters apart (one was orignially 11000 words long--that was over 10% of the novel in one chapter). It gave a massive lift to the story arc.

In my current WIP, I'm having the same problem as you. I've got a couple of really short chapters near the start. I can already see ways of combining a couple of them but I'm almost certain one will stay short (~900 words). But I'm also pushing on with the story in the knowledge that I'll end up coming back to remold the start anyway.

 

[Dragonlady]

So you'd just leave it feeling disjointed?

 

[The Judge]

Forgive me if I'm missing the point, but who says one scene has to be in a chapter all of its own? If you want to have chapters of about 3000-4000 words each (actually my preferred length), why don't you simply put two or three scenes together to make one chapter?

In your January "Timing in Novel Planning" thread I attached a copy of the kind of table I draw up as I go through -- here it is again:

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As you can see, in Ch 2 there are three scenes -- they're all linked by being on the same day and following each other pretty closely in time; Ch 3's four scenes are the same, following on directly. But later on I have other chapters which contain scenes from different days, but are linked thematically, eg another day of travelling. I also have many chapters in which the action all takes place on the same day, but I've split them at both the scene and chapter level to give the best, most effective endings -- on more than one occasion I've cut prospective scenes in two, allocating them to separate chapters to get the best result.

In this particular WiP, there is only one POV, but in other WiPs I juggle multiple POVs and use the same system -- it isn't the POV that's important, but the day/time/theme of what's going on.

If you're worried that two scenes aren't close enough in place or time to link into one chapter, look further for a thematic link, either on the macro level of what the scene is about, or the micro level of what they're doing eg eating, getting a drink -- in a SF POV, I ended one scene with a character in a slumped pose of dejection, and started the next with another character in exactly the same pose.

Even if you can't see or create those thematic links yet, they'll probably make themselves obvious as and when you're looking at things as a whole, so don't worry about it unduly at the moment.

 

[Ashley R]

Or, stop worrying about word length and think of chapters as piece of the story: the beginning must drag the reader to start/continue the story, and the end makes the reader want to turn the page.

As for long chapters, think more about how long each takes to read, so short and long chapters are varying the pace of the story.

 

[Dragonlady]

Thanks! Chapters aren't really the issue, it's when my brain churns out about a thousand words that doesn't directly connect to what's coming next or has just been. I have some lovely chapters- one tells the story of an attempted burglary, and the character's feelings about it can be woven through what comes next, but I don't always manage that straight off.

I'm finding the vacuum cleaner/lawn mower technique useful- going back over a bit of story to see if I've missed anything that needs reworking. Did that today and it gave me a new scene and some threads that can be woven forward.

At the mo I have a bit where they're investigating a murder in the autumn, then a scene where a character meets some visitors to the city, then a summer festival (I might move it to spring) where the visitors are referred to, and the visitor scene feels a bit stranded if that makes any sense

 

[Dragonlady]

@The Judge I will try and remember your table, something like that may be useful when revising but while I know where I am going I am very much pantsing the middle

 

[sknox]

Yes, connecting scenes can be a challenge. I'm one of those who tends to write scenes way out of order--I have my novel plotted and know where I'm going, but when I get an insight on how to handle a particular (usually crucial) scene, I write it and worry about the connective tissue later. I need to capture the feeling of that moment and have learned the hard way that if I don't, it will vanish. I may not actually use the scene as written, but I don't want to lose that feeling and that moment.

Which then leaves me with quite a pile of lovely bones to assemble into a creature.

I look for where the connections have to happen--at the beginning and end of the scene, with most of the attention being at the end, so let's start there. How does the scene end? If it ends with everyone going to sleep or agreeing on a plan or overcoming the obstacle, I immediately assume the scene isn't finished. The scene needs to end not at resolution but at tension. Let's say we agree on the plan. The scene shouldn't end with "yes" but with one person still having reservations, or being shouted down. Or with some intimation that the plan is based on a false assumption or bad information; sure, everyone in the room agrees, but the reader knows that's not going to fly. IOW, raise a question, make a disagreement, do something that leans forward into the next scene. If everything's neatly tucked in, you give the reader a reason to put the book down at that point. Do a browse through some of your favorite books and see how that sort of thing gets done.

Beginnings are trickier because they may involve a shift in POV. If so, you may (or may not) need to let the reader know not only that we're in a different place with a different person, but what was happening when last we saw our hero. We need to catch the tension level from previous, then carry that forward into the new problem. Here we see the other side of the conflict/resoution/reaction sequence. If we've not created any tension coming out of the previous scene, we're sort of starting over here in the new scene. In editing, I look for beginnings that are of the "here we are continuing our journey" type. That's a sign something needs fixing.

Anyway, I hope some of the above gives you some useful ideas.

 

[Dragonlady]

@sknox that's really helpful thank you!

 

[The Judge]

Thanks! Chapters aren't really the issue, it's when my brain churns out about a thousand words that doesn't directly connect to what's coming next or has just been.

At the mo I have a bit where they're investigating a murder in the autumn, then a scene where a character meets some visitors to the city, then a summer festival (I might move it to spring) where the visitors are referred to, and the visitor scene feels a bit stranded if that makes any sense

Ah, right, I'd got the wrong end of the stick. As far as I can see, you're simply writing oddments as the ideas arrive with you, rather than in a strict linear this-happens-next order. I agree with sknox that when you get a scene screaming at you, it's important to write it straight away -- if only as a set of rough notes -- because sure as eggs is eggs if you don't, it'll get lost somewhere. And jumping between scenes from all over the place is certainly something I've done, but usually because I'm stuck somewhere and it's better to write a scene 20 chapters ahead that I've had an idea for rather than sit looking at a blank screen and getting worked up over it.

However, there is perhaps a risk that with this technique you'll end up only writing the easiest, interesting, bits, and when they're done, you run out of enthusiasm for the bits in between. I'd therefore suggest that until you're as experienced as sknox you try and write a little more linearly. Which means in this case sitting down and doing a bit of plotting to link the scenes together ie work out what everyone is doing between the end of the investigation and meeting the visitors and the spring/summer festival. You don't necessarily have to write all the intervening scenes, and they probably won't need to appear in the novel, but you do need to know what has happened to each and every character over the months. In that way, you can create the links in later scenes by referring to those events. So make a list of possible things they've done, work out the repercussions of each, and see which best fit with the novel's overall themes.

@The Judge I will try and remember your table, something like that may be useful when revising but while I know where I am going I am very much pantsing the middle

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound all "How dare you forget that wonderful table I produced for you?"! It was simply that, for me, was the easiest way to explain what I meant, and having it in the post was easier than referring to it in the other thread.

But just to clarify, I'm a pantser from start to finish, with only very occasional plotting to get me out of a hole. But I don't make that table at the end, it's started when I start writing. Quite literally, I'll note down the details -- day/date/time/description -- as soon as I start a chapter/scene, and when I've finished writing for the day I'll add the word count. Next day, if I work on the same scene I'll note what the new word count is. The table grows as I write the chapters. If I suddenly jump to a scene later in the book, I'll leave a few lines, come up with a likely chapter number and add those details. If I edit word count down, I make the change here; if I split a scene, I make the change here. I've therefore always got an up-to-date note of exactly what I've written and where it fits in, and I can look and see where possible problems are from a structural point of view as I'm writing. It's also much easier to create as you're going along, rather than ex post facto (and I'm all for the easy life!).

 

[Dragonlady]

@The Judge thanks, that makes sense. It's strange this project, I already know the overall structure but characters, setting and the nitty gritty I was struggling to picture.. when I stepped back to plan/world build I got bored, so I world- built and got to know my characters by writing scenes I could see, until I found the beginning. Now I've found it I am merging in existing scenes when I get to them (they won't all make the cut).

You're probably right about planning stuff that won't necessarily get written about, it's a good way to think about it, thanks!

 

[-K2-]

Though I agree with most of what folks say (and I'll remind everyone, I'm just a novice writer), past finishing what you're writing then worrying about chapter length, I'd not sweat length too much. What follows is entirely personal preference.

First off, I don't care for (in MY work), multiple scenes in a chapter. But, that has more to do with how I layout a story. I've seen works where a chapter contains many scenes from many places--seemingly unrelated--and they do it well, I don't... My chapters tend to fall on the short side, av. 2,500+/- words. I have a few that push 3,500, but I just edited one that is a short 1,600 words (expanded to be that long), and might have one even shorter. That doesn't matter 'to me though.'

To me... a chapter focuses on a particular subject. Though it follows, applies, and is connected to the previous chapter, and must set-up for the following chapter, it says what it needs to and nothing more. That short chapter I mentioned was taken from the preceding chapter because it killed the pace, made the P-chapter drag after a point, and though it's in the same scene, it had nothing to do with the P-chapter's subject. P-Chapter 9 was a storm hitting, what happened and how the people reacted. Chapter 10 (the short one), was where I finally had opportunity to describe the characters. Chapter 11 is more action and movement.

That leads to pacing. The storm is exciting, lots of action and interaction. The character description chapter reads slower. So, the storm chapter (in my mind) can read longer--to a point. That point being, where it begins to lose urgency and excitement because it's too long. The character chapter needs to be much shorter so about the time the reader is 'about' to tire of it, it moves on to the next chapter.

I want to leave every chapter at a very specific point, one pertaining to the state it leaves the reader in. I want it to be satisfying, but not drag/take too long (based on the subject of it). I want the reader to be able to close the book (based on their timeline), but...I also want to leave them with a strong curiosity to learn what happens next, perhaps even saying to themselves, "just one more chapter." I also want each chapter to end so their anticipation of what comes next taunts them throughout their day, urging them to get back to the novel. Based on the first point though, I want the reader to be done/finished with the previous chapter, feeling no need to rehash it. That means the information contained must be concise enough that it has impact, sinks in and sticks with them.

To accomplish all that, it means a chapter is what it is as to length, based on the subject, the pace, and how it leaves them. I prefer a modest word-count. But, in the end, I'd have 3-- 1,000 word chapters in a row if it accomplished that, rather than merge them all simply to accomplish a 3,000 word chapter as the only goal.

Just my long-winded, inexperienced opinion,

K2

 

[Phyrebrat]

So you'd just leave it feeling disjointed?

Really, irrespective of the advice you've been given, I'd ask myself the question 'what do I want it to be like' rather than ask the forum. You'll get so many differing views on what to do it might stall you. If you're a tinkerer, tinker, if you are happy to let it stay unresolved while you finish the arc, do so; it's all up to how you want to work.

I realised recently that listening to other writers can be one of the most damaging things to do to our own motivation and creativity. I don't mean that in a barbed way against anyone here, I mean it stymies creativity and starts to put a binary spin on things as to what is right and what is wrong. Disjointed scenes can be a joy, esp in mystery or thrillers, and I've never read a book where I've thought the chapters too long or short, or complained about disjointedness. Clunky writing is not disjointed scenes.

If you're aware that something is wrong, I'd suggest letting it occupy your mind for a week or two without trying to fix it. I find the brain has a remarkable talent for problem-solving in the subconscious. If you can bear to let it marinate for a bit, then do so, otherwise your only other practical option is to carry on and sort it out later.

But you're in good company - most of my scenes are around 2k, some 900 - and I've never once thought how other people might feel about that, just how do I feel about it in the sense of getting my story across. If it works for me, I keep it.

pH

 

[Dragonlady]

Thanks @Phyrebrat . I guess the reason I was asking is that I was dissatisfied with how it stands at the moment and looking for ideas not on how it should look but what could help me get it there. @sknox and others' comments about tension here and ending a scene or chapter are something i'd never really thought about it. And sometimes asking things here helps you clarify your own thought processes. Whilst I'm not planning before I do stuff I think I need to do more as I go along, if that makes any sense, so I don't drop any balls. @-K2- that really chimes with me, most of my chapters are 1 scene. I did one recently where it started in 1 POV, then I moved to another, and they ended up in the same place with the 2nd pov - he came to the place she was- which was quite pleasing somehow.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

You said you wanted to do it without adding padding. A good way to avoid padding is not to add material for some arbitrary reason like, "A chapter should be x number of words long."

Write what you think you need to write to make the story the way you want it to be. Worry about chapter length later. By then you may decide it doesn't really matter to you how long your chapters are. You may be so pleased with what you have, you'll wonder why you ever worried about something like that. Or you may decide that it does really matter to you. And since it is your book, what really matters to you does, in fact, matter. In which case, cutting things to length is usually a much better idea that adding on to them to reach a certain length. Not always. But usually.

 

[sknox]

>Whilst I'm not planning before I do stuff I think I need to do more as I go along, ...
One way to go about this is to think about the entrance and exit of the scene before writing it. For myself, I tend to thing "here is what needs to happen in this scene". Not in any detailed way, just "MC gets word something important has happened; he's going to have to decide what to do and whom to bring."

That's what leads me into snippets, because it doesn't address the entrance and exit (i.e., transitions). Where is the MC when word arrives? What's she doing? Is this news an interruption (which could tie back to previous scene)? When the scene is ending, what remains unresolved? Maybe more information is needed. Maybe the MC has decided and has X and Y but where the hell's Z? That sort of thing.

Note that the entrance doesn't necessarily have to tie back to the immediately previous scene. It might connect with something three scenes ago (not too far back; the definition of too far being left as an exercise for the student). Similarly, the exit might tip forward to one or multiple subsequent scenes. And I don't have to decide all that at once. I can leave the threads dangle a bit. But at least I know they're there. I might make a list: I've written myself close to the end of the scene and then just make notes for direction A, B, and C. This helps me remember where my head was at the time. I know it's *supposed* to be on my shoulders, but I've a wayward head.