How do you write what you want to write instead of what is expected by your readers? I have a beta reader (my husband) reading my fantasy book and he would point out what readers wouldn't want to read. Whether it's the perspective or the dialogue or something else; I am confronted with this idea that I have to conform to the expectations of what readers want to read.
Your Work vs. Expectations of Readers
- Thread starter JadeW
- Start date
Well, the big caveat is whether your husband really makes for the best beta reader - his opinions may simply be personal preference rather than technical feedback.
However, if you do want to write for other people to enjoy your work, then generally you have to write at a level of competence that readers would expect. That means - generally - being able to understand something of the technicalities of writing and how to apply them for best effect.
If you'd like some pointers on that, Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer provides a comprehensive overview.
However, in terms of plot and development, some authors have made a name for themselves precisely by challenging expectations.
However, if you do want to write for other people to enjoy your work, then generally you have to write at a level of competence that readers would expect. That means - generally - being able to understand something of the technicalities of writing and how to apply them for best effect.
If you'd like some pointers on that, Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer provides a comprehensive overview.
However, in terms of plot and development, some authors have made a name for themselves precisely by challenging expectations.
Forget about caring about the market and you’re half way there. You’ll be broke, mind, but your readers will slowly find you.
tinkerdan
∞<Q-Satis
My experience is that my first line of beta reading is my wife whose reading is 99% romance novels.
She also a retired LPN.
This means that when I was writing about a Medical space station and she would say I don't think a nurse would do that or a doctor would say that--I listened.
However:
We both knew better than to trust her to say what a reader of Science Fiction might or might not like.[Or be looking for].
This is why it is important to know what the critique-er reads and even a bit about their skills in writing.
If you don't know anything about them you can only hope they know what they are talking about. This is why writers need, rather than a thick skin, a good sense of technique in writing and writing skills from which to compare to what 'help' is being offered. Or at least a proper resume from the people in your writing group.
It's great to be able to accept advice without flinching; however it is better to know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I'll stop with one last thought: the more we try to force our writing to look like another persons ideal the less likely we will be able to enjoy writing and to produce enjoyable reading material.
She also a retired LPN.
This means that when I was writing about a Medical space station and she would say I don't think a nurse would do that or a doctor would say that--I listened.
However:
We both knew better than to trust her to say what a reader of Science Fiction might or might not like.[Or be looking for].
This is why it is important to know what the critique-er reads and even a bit about their skills in writing.
If you don't know anything about them you can only hope they know what they are talking about. This is why writers need, rather than a thick skin, a good sense of technique in writing and writing skills from which to compare to what 'help' is being offered. Or at least a proper resume from the people in your writing group.
It's great to be able to accept advice without flinching; however it is better to know how to separate the wheat from the chaff.
I'll stop with one last thought: the more we try to force our writing to look like another persons ideal the less likely we will be able to enjoy writing and to produce enjoyable reading material.
Last edited:
Expected by your readers? You mean they have entitlement issues?
Don't even consider your readers would be my opinion beyond what Brian says about being able to write competently. If you're talking about subjects and narratives, characters and ideas, write for yourself. I think the oft-misunderstood 'write what you know' is key here: it means write what you like [afterall, how many of us know how to fly a dragon or a spaceship]. If you like it, chances are there are thousands of other readers out there who will.How does he know what readers do and don't want? Also, I'd advise additional beta's outside of friends and families. I've never sent anything to be beta'd, so I may be wrong here, but I think a beta is there to highlight logic, structural and rationale problems that you might have overlooked because of your overfamiliarity with the story. If my partner told me what readers would and wouldn't like, I'd tell him to go and write his own book!
This.
Anyway, get to know the community here and when you've been here awhile you'll probably find a good match for yourself re betas and get some great feedback.
Best of luck
pH
If you want to call yourself a creative you'd better write to please yourself. . Avoid the trap of letting others tell you what they want you to write. Collectively they will turn your work to mush as you try to please them all.
Basically you let your audience find you, you don't write for an audience requirement.
There are exceptions like writing specifically for Mills and Boon or People's Friend where there is a pretty tight formula expectation.
Obviously you need to keep an eye on the narrative, plot points and arcs, but not slavishly so.
When you are done lob it out to half a dozen beta readers and avoid close friends and family. If you feel it is up to scratch there are chrons who will beta if you ask nicely. I gave an experimental novella (first person present tense) of mine to someone here and got constructive criticism as well as flagging an error in my physics which necessitated my working back through the chronology.
But in general it is best to define yourself rather than being defined by others.
. Avoid the trap of letting others tell you what they want you to write. Collectively they will turn your work to mush as you try to please them all.Basically you let your audience find you, you don't write for an audience requirement.
There are exceptions like writing specifically for Mills and Boon or People's Friend where there is a pretty tight formula expectation.
Obviously you need to keep an eye on the narrative, plot points and arcs, but not slavishly so.
When you are done lob it out to half a dozen beta readers and avoid close friends and family. If you feel it is up to scratch there are chrons who will beta if you ask nicely.
I gave an experimental novella (first person present tense) of mine to someone here and got constructive criticism as well as flagging an error in my physics which necessitated my working back through the chronology.But in general it is best to define yourself rather than being defined by others.
I've discovered, my readers expect for me to grind out garbage... Unfortunately, I've not failed them yet.
So, clearly you're approaching this from the wrong angle. You could alter or redefine your skills to suit your current readers--but considering we're absolutely perfect as we are--the most realistic approach is to find better readers. So, your Husband just has to go.
Then again, just in case he is a keeper, take a hard look at his suggestions and get some other folks to look at your work to see what they have to say (as others here have suggested). One way is to stick around here a bit and once your post count reaches the required number, post a sample in critiques.
Welcome to the forum!
K2
So, clearly you're approaching this from the wrong angle. You could alter or redefine your skills to suit your current readers--but considering we're absolutely perfect as we are--the most realistic approach is to find better readers. So, your Husband just has to go.
Then again, just in case he is a keeper, take a hard look at his suggestions and get some other folks to look at your work to see what they have to say (as others here have suggested). One way is to stick around here a bit and once your post count reaches the required number, post a sample in critiques.
Welcome to the forum!
K2
This with knobs on. You have to write what you like, for yourself, otherwise you'll get bored and if you're bored what's the point?
I absolutely agree. My wife is my first beta and I'm fortunate that she's really good at pointing out inconsistencies in character behaviour and outright bad writing. But she definitely has different tastes in what she wants to read and she regularly finds elements that she doesn't like but which I find essential.
How to get around that? Find more beta readers! Start by posting a sample of your work in the critiques section (once you've got the requisite 30 posts). Once you've gone through that experience, you might ask some of the folk here if they're willing to beta. Not everyone has the time but there are usually a few good souls willing to help out. (And you can return the favour for them.)
MikeAnderson
A.K.A. TRICKY DICK NIXON!
You start writing strictly to placate fans, you turn into a paper mill. I know it works for guys like James Patterson, but most writers have to write from the soul.
Joshua Jones
When all is said and done, all's quiet and boring.
Not to be a slight dissension from the advice given above, but there is a fine balance to be maintained here. On one hand, the above posters here are absolutely correct that you cannot successfully write by committee, but it is equally true that, if you want to sell books, you have to write things which are appealing to the market. The good part is there is a market for everything. The bad part is the markets for some things are MUCH smaller than others.
So, I would contend that you need more beta readers, as suggested above, but especially ones who read extensively and/or write in your genre. Their feedback, personally, I would take more seriously than someone who likes SFF generally, or, worse, just likes fiction in general. Also, you'll find quite a few people here who are exceptional writers, and even better at critiquing. There are several people on this thread alone whose opinion, in my mind, is worth its weight in gold, and more on the forum. They have proven themselves not only capable of writing exceptional work, but also critiquing thoroughly and graciously.
So, if you're looking for beta readers, I would recommend reading the critiques section, commenting on other people's work, and when your post count reaches 30, post a section for review. You'll get a good, quick feel of who does it well and who does it poorly on this site (spoiler alert; I don't think anyone currently posting reviews regularly does this poorly, but we have had some in the past...), and who reads in your genre.
All that to say, I hope to see some of your work in the critiques soon!
So, I would contend that you need more beta readers, as suggested above, but especially ones who read extensively and/or write in your genre. Their feedback, personally, I would take more seriously than someone who likes SFF generally, or, worse, just likes fiction in general. Also, you'll find quite a few people here who are exceptional writers, and even better at critiquing. There are several people on this thread alone whose opinion, in my mind, is worth its weight in gold, and more on the forum. They have proven themselves not only capable of writing exceptional work, but also critiquing thoroughly and graciously.
So, if you're looking for beta readers, I would recommend reading the critiques section, commenting on other people's work, and when your post count reaches 30, post a section for review. You'll get a good, quick feel of who does it well and who does it poorly on this site (spoiler alert; I don't think anyone currently posting reviews regularly does this poorly, but we have had some in the past...), and who reads in your genre.
All that to say, I hope to see some of your work in the critiques soon!
MikeAnderson
A.K.A. TRICKY DICK NIXON!
I was slightly joking about the paper mill thing. But, yeah, there is a tricky balance between personal fulfillment and keeping your customer based satisfied.
Joshua Jones
When all is said and done, all's quiet and boring.
TBH, I think that is a fair description of what happens when one falls too far off the balance toward the pleasing the customer side, which I think is captured by your use of the word "strictly". Also, being honest, I would love to make as much as Patterson spends on his adverts, much less his net sales! But, I think I would rather be proud of and enjoy my own work than churn out formulaic writing (or rather, hire ghost writers to churn out formulaic writing), especially being my profession is literally churning out formulaic, yet persuasive, writing to seek funding awards. And, ultimately, writing formulaic work may work when one is as established as Patterson, but for a new author, it is rather difficult to start out that way.
Steve Harrison
Well-Known Member
As I aim to sell my work, my writing has to appeal to me the reader AND meet the expectations of other readers. This means some compromises, but it also helps rein in my more indulgent impulses.
It's not something I give much conscious thought to while writing, but it's another of the many challenges and one that comes more to the fore during editing.
It's not something I give much conscious thought to while writing, but it's another of the many challenges and one that comes more to the fore during editing.
This is a very important area for new writers to consider. The moment you begin pondering "what my readers want to read" you are sunk as a writer. You have 100% right and responsibility to write whatever you like, so long as it works, is a great read and you like it. Your readers will be expecting exactly this: a great story, originally done, written to a reasonable standard. Technique is fairly important, but what is more important is imagination. Your husband has no right to tell you what he believes readers want to read. He's talking about himself. It's your job to make your readers engage with your novel and love it through imagination - and that can go anywhere. Expectations are a cage. Have hopes - yes. But not expectations. Become an Artist.
DLCroix
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2020
- Messages
- 339
Hi! Well, in my opinion, nothing replaces common sense and logic. It is the first guide that allows you to know if what you are writing is inside or outside the parameters. You should consider a story or a novel as a letter to someone you love. That will be your ideal reader (IR). In fact, it is based on this that the thematic orientation later arises; which is divided, yes, depending on the treatment of a subject and the potential IR, in M, MG, YA, A, etc.
But even in an erotic scene, ice will always be ice and the fire, fire. This aspect, which has more to do with logic, in greater terms requires that you always keep in mind the coherence of your story, that there are no contradictions in the dates or characteristics of the characters: if you said that your heroine has blue eyes, later you cannot appear saying that it has them green.
You have to be very careful with that, because it happens or it be ignored even to beta readers. By extension, another of the most serious problems you may encounter will be the famous Deux Ex Machina. The rule of Chekov's gun, come on.
Deep down I'm telling you that the first best reader in your story will always be yourself; it must have happened to you, I imagine, that while you are ordering the children's room, you suddenly find an old box lying around and inside a forgotten manuscript, and when you take what at first was a simple glance, when from the first floor your mother or your husband is calling you to come downstairs, you have just realized that you have been reading that old text absorbed for ten minutes, sometimes even in wonder, I dare say.
This is one of the main reasons why it is recommended that the finished texts should be allowed to rest for at least a couple of weeks before being read again. Since that time has passed, you will have been doing other things in the meantime; then you are much more clear-minded and fresh to face a revision. In fact, Stephen King in his book On Writing recommends six weeks.
With which it is deduced that it is not advisable to let others read your texts until you have made that first rereading alone. What happens in this part of the process is that your mind is no longer creating as in the writing phase, but is reviewing, and is saying in your ear: "hey, here's a character motivation problem", or " Wait, I mean, at what point did someone say that this or that thing was going to happen? ¿From where appeared that gun wich the hero killed the villain?" (Deux ex Machina) .
Therefore, it is important that you take note of all those concerns that appear to you. This will generate a questionnaire that will give rise to a new creative process.
But calm down. First of all, do as many closed-door reviews as you deem appropriate. That, as I said, generates a valuable list of points to correct. But just that.
Do not correct anything yet.
Because now the time has come when you can deliver the text to your beta readers. People of trust. Friends, if possible. You will see that some of the opinions of these match your list. Or new things will appear that no one else has seen. Write them down and add them to your list. But only you know who is right or wrong. Look for the repetition of common patterns. Stephen King recommends eight beta readers; in fact, in the book I cited, King develops this and other themes in a much more didactic and better way.
Hope this help
But even in an erotic scene, ice will always be ice and the fire, fire. This aspect, which has more to do with logic, in greater terms requires that you always keep in mind the coherence of your story, that there are no contradictions in the dates or characteristics of the characters: if you said that your heroine has blue eyes, later you cannot appear saying that it has them green.
You have to be very careful with that, because it happens or it be ignored even to beta readers. By extension, another of the most serious problems you may encounter will be the famous Deux Ex Machina. The rule of Chekov's gun, come on.
Deep down I'm telling you that the first best reader in your story will always be yourself; it must have happened to you, I imagine, that while you are ordering the children's room, you suddenly find an old box lying around and inside a forgotten manuscript, and when you take what at first was a simple glance, when from the first floor your mother or your husband is calling you to come downstairs, you have just realized that you have been reading that old text absorbed for ten minutes, sometimes even in wonder, I dare say.
This is one of the main reasons why it is recommended that the finished texts should be allowed to rest for at least a couple of weeks before being read again. Since that time has passed, you will have been doing other things in the meantime; then you are much more clear-minded and fresh to face a revision. In fact, Stephen King in his book On Writing recommends six weeks.
With which it is deduced that it is not advisable to let others read your texts until you have made that first rereading alone. What happens in this part of the process is that your mind is no longer creating as in the writing phase, but is reviewing, and is saying in your ear: "hey, here's a character motivation problem", or " Wait, I mean, at what point did someone say that this or that thing was going to happen? ¿From where appeared that gun wich the hero killed the villain?" (Deux ex Machina) .
Therefore, it is important that you take note of all those concerns that appear to you. This will generate a questionnaire that will give rise to a new creative process.
But calm down. First of all, do as many closed-door reviews as you deem appropriate. That, as I said, generates a valuable list of points to correct. But just that.
Do not correct anything yet.
Because now the time has come when you can deliver the text to your beta readers. People of trust. Friends, if possible. You will see that some of the opinions of these match your list. Or new things will appear that no one else has seen. Write them down and add them to your list. But only you know who is right or wrong. Look for the repetition of common patterns. Stephen King recommends eight beta readers; in fact, in the book I cited, King develops this and other themes in a much more didactic and better way.
Hope this help
This business of writing with an audience in mind isn't just a binary choice. There are many levels to revising a work, right? If I don't care enough about my readers to spellcheck and fix grammar, then I'm being just plain rude as an author. Same goes for correcting continuity errors. Plot holes. Inconsistent characterization. Lapses in voice. Excessive exposition. Breaking genre. Haranguing or lecturing the reader.
OK, by the end of that paragraph we're clearly in the territory of opinion and far removed from simple proofreading. Which is my point. This isn't a simple choice and it certainly isn't as easy as some romantic notion of being true to one's art. Hell, I don't know that I can even claim to have an art; I just want to tell stories.
But, reversing direction here, I'm very aware that the kind of fiction I write has a tiny audience. I'm fine with that. I'm not going to write about anything other than Altearth because that world has more stories in it than I have years left to me. I'm not going to try to attract people who prefer thrillers or horror. I'm not going to write grimdark, I'm going to write historical fantasy. Within that niche, however, I absolutely am going to try to entertain and be cognizant of what entertains.
To put it another way, I don't see any choice to be made. There's no conflict between writing what I want, and writing what my readers enjoy.
OK, by the end of that paragraph we're clearly in the territory of opinion and far removed from simple proofreading. Which is my point. This isn't a simple choice and it certainly isn't as easy as some romantic notion of being true to one's art. Hell, I don't know that I can even claim to have an art; I just want to tell stories.
But, reversing direction here, I'm very aware that the kind of fiction I write has a tiny audience. I'm fine with that. I'm not going to write about anything other than Altearth because that world has more stories in it than I have years left to me. I'm not going to try to attract people who prefer thrillers or horror. I'm not going to write grimdark, I'm going to write historical fantasy. Within that niche, however, I absolutely am going to try to entertain and be cognizant of what entertains.
To put it another way, I don't see any choice to be made. There's no conflict between writing what I want, and writing what my readers enjoy.
tinkerdan
∞<Q-Satis
I'm not sure that even the publishers actually know what the readers expect when considering all aspects of writing a book.
Sure they do know best because they have been in the business for quite a while. They have an idea of the tolerance for Grammar errors and structure and all things in writing well.
Honestly though I don't think it amounts to formula--and in the case of content--that constantly shifts. Something might be popular today; however by the time you finish your work everyone might be tired of the subject.
No doubt, if you write well, you can write just about anything you want--if you are lucky then you might sell enough copies.
If you write well and quickly enough you could probably benefit from jumping on every bandwagon that comes your way.
However to a certain extent, there are no guarantees. This is especially true of new authors. So you might want to research your genre and try to color inside the lines while writing well, to get yourself started. However having something new could be helpful and having something new seems to fall outside of what the reader's expect. That's part of the definition of new. Unless the reader expects something new all the time, in which case I'm pretty sure that that often flies in the face of book sales--i'm just sayin.
Sure they do know best because they have been in the business for quite a while. They have an idea of the tolerance for Grammar errors and structure and all things in writing well.
Honestly though I don't think it amounts to formula--and in the case of content--that constantly shifts. Something might be popular today; however by the time you finish your work everyone might be tired of the subject.
No doubt, if you write well, you can write just about anything you want--if you are lucky then you might sell enough copies.
If you write well and quickly enough you could probably benefit from jumping on every bandwagon that comes your way.
However to a certain extent, there are no guarantees. This is especially true of new authors. So you might want to research your genre and try to color inside the lines while writing well, to get yourself started. However having something new could be helpful and having something new seems to fall outside of what the reader's expect. That's part of the definition of new. Unless the reader expects something new all the time, in which case I'm pretty sure that that often flies in the face of book sales--i'm just sayin.
I would say having my husband be a beta reader has been an eye opener. I try to see him as representing my readers, yet I find myself defending my work and thinking is this really how most readers would think. I understand what you are getting at Brian, I'm going to check out the book you recommended. You make a good point on how some authors have made a name for themselves by thinking outside the box. Thanks.Well, the big caveat is whether your husband really makes for the best beta reader - his opinions may simply be personal preference rather than technical feedback.
However, if you do want to write for other people to enjoy your work, then generally you have to write at a level of competence that readers would expect. That means - generally - being able to understand something of the technicalities of writing and how to apply them for best effect.
If you'd like some pointers on that, Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer provides a comprehensive overview.
However, in terms of plot and development, some authors have made a name for themselves precisely by challenging expectations.
It's interesting that you say that because I started off with a mentality of doing my own thing. I was using first person perspective on my first draft, but then I was told that that wasn't the best perspective in writing fantasy. My other beta reader (my sister) didn't even want to touch my book when she saw that it was that way. So I changed it.
It's useful to have a beta reader that has some knowledge on what you are writing and they can point out some errors. Thanks for the advise, especially the last thought.
I honestly wasn't thinking about my readers when I wrote the book. I mean, I want people to read my book, yet I didn't have an opinion whether I should be considering their thoughts on how a book should be written. I believe, at one point, I did tell my husband to write a book (out of anger). He's more of a computer person, though.Expected by your readers? You mean they have entitlement issues?
How does he know what readers do and don't want? Also, I'd advise additional beta's outside of friends and families. I've never sent anything to be beta'd, so I may be wrong here, but I think a beta is there to highlight logic, structural and rationale problems that you might have overlooked because of your overfamiliarity with the story. If my partner told me what readers would and wouldn't like, I'd tell him to go and write his own book!
This.
Anyway, get to know the community here and when you've been here awhile you'll probably find a good match for yourself re betas and get some great feedback.
Best of luck
pH
Thanks for the advise.I like the advise of letting the audience find me. I actually had my book as the perspective you had yours; then I changed it because my beta readers didn't want to read it that way. It's good to know that there are other writers who do things differently. Thanks.If you want to call yourself a creative you'd better write to please yourself.
Basically you let your audience find you, you don't write for an audience requirement.
There are exceptions like writing specifically for Mills and Boon or People's Friend where there is a pretty tight formula expectation.
Obviously you need to keep an eye on the narrative, plot points and arcs, but not slavishly so.
When you are done lob it out to half a dozen beta readers and avoid close friends and family. If you feel it is up to scratch there are chrons who will beta if you ask nicely.
But in general it is best to define yourself rather than being defined by others.
My husband is a keeper when it comes to our relationship.I've discovered, my readers expect for me to grind out garbage... Unfortunately, I've not failed them yet.
So, clearly you're approaching this from the wrong angle. You could alter or redefine your skills to suit your current readers--but considering we're absolutely perfect as we are--the most realistic approach is to find better readers. So, your Husband just has to go.
Then again, just in case he is a keeper, take a hard look at his suggestions and get some other folks to look at your work to see what they have to say (as others here have suggested). One way is to stick around here a bit and once your post count reaches the required number, post a sample in critiques.
Welcome to the forum!
K2
Yet, I do need a better beta reader. I look forward to posting a sample in one of the forums. Thanks for the advise.I'm definitely looking forward to posting a sample and looking for some beta readers. I would love to return the favor.
@sknox offered up some fine advice to me when I first came here which you can read here: This Horse ain't Dead! Info-dumping, Exposition, Appendices, etc...
And here in the same thread: This Horse ain't Dead! Info-dumping, Exposition, Appendices, etc...
Past that, others have stated that we often can't see problems until they're pointed out to us. We know in our mind's eye what we meant, so we add that bit of knowledge into our own take of our own work. I agree with being true to yourself, but...if you want others to read your work, understand and enjoy it, then you have to leave it to them to tell you how they felt about it. And, accept their views as gospel--not of your work, though perhaps--but their actual views.
In the end, if you're the only one who gets your vision, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone else to embrace it just because you do. If you're wanting others to enjoy it, then their opinion does matter. But, they are only one person, not everyone...just be willing to accept if everyone states, 'they don't get it," then the problem is not with their viewpoint.
K2
And here in the same thread: This Horse ain't Dead! Info-dumping, Exposition, Appendices, etc...
Past that, others have stated that we often can't see problems until they're pointed out to us. We know in our mind's eye what we meant, so we add that bit of knowledge into our own take of our own work. I agree with being true to yourself, but...if you want others to read your work, understand and enjoy it, then you have to leave it to them to tell you how they felt about it. And, accept their views as gospel--not of your work, though perhaps--but their actual views.
In the end, if you're the only one who gets your vision, that's fine. Just don't expect anyone else to embrace it just because you do. If you're wanting others to enjoy it, then their opinion does matter. But, they are only one person, not everyone...just be willing to accept if everyone states, 'they don't get it," then the problem is not with their viewpoint.
K2
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