Fanfiction

[Narkalui]

So last weekend I stumbled across a fanfiction of a series written by one of our very own Chronners (said Chronner was made aware), and now I'm curious.

Firstly, I would like to know how you all feel about fanfiction in general, especially from our published fellows. How would you feel if someone wrote a fanfiction based on your work? Flattered? Plagiarised?

Have any Chronners apart from me read any fanfiction?

Has anyone actually written fanfiction?

 

[Toby Frost]

I remember writing something about a time machine when I was very young, which was probably part H.G. Wells, part Dr Who. I also wrote some extremely generic D&D type fantasy. Would that count?

I wouldn't like it. I've always felt that the stuff I've written is very much my own thing, and I don't really like the idea of giving up that exclusivity. Also, I think it would be easy to get Space Captain Smith wrong, and to write something that was unfunny or mean-spirited. When my publisher did the audiobooks, it took me a while to work myself up to listening to it, for fear that the reader had spoiled it somehow. Actually, he did an excellent job, but I'm still uncomfortable about things like that.

 

[HareBrain]

Firstly, I would like to know how you all feel about fanfiction in general, especially from our published fellows. How would you feel if someone wrote a fanfiction based on your work? Flattered? Plagiarised?

This is a special case rather than "random" fanfic, but last year some Chronners did fanfic of my two published stories for my birthday, and it was honestly one of the best presents I've ever had. I don't think my reaction would have been much different if they'd been by random interweb people, with no intention of me ever seeing them. I think I'd only be agin it if it was in a spirit of mockery or for money.

(It wasn't as if the Chronners were being flattering or necessarily respectful to my characters. Quite the reverse in one case!)

I think my main reason for liking it isn't so much flattery as in seeing what other people make of my characters. It gives them a sort of independent life out in the world. (Yes yes, they're substitute children, I've had the therapy.)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I’d be cool about it. In fact, I’d welcome it to see what they did with the characters.
My kid writes fan fic and she’s gaining a ton of confidence from it (and from what seems to be a supportive web community). I’m good with that too

 

[Narkalui]

I remember writing something about a time machine when I was very young, which was probably part H.G. Wells, part Dr Who. I also wrote some extremely generic D&D type fantasy. Would that count?

I wouldn't like it. I've always felt that the stuff I've written is very much my own thing, and I don't really like the idea of giving up that exclusivity. Also, I think it would be easy to get Space Captain Smith wrong, and to write something that was unfunny or mean-spirited. When my publisher did the audiobooks, it took me a while to work myself up to listening to it, for fear that the reader had spoiled it somehow. Actually, he did an excellent job, but I'm still uncomfortable about things like that.

Some might argue that D&D is already Tolkien fanfiction, otherwise I don't think your time travel story would count.

It's no secret that Anne Rice has a similar opinion to you, to the extent that she legally blocks fanfiction sites from publishing material based on her work. George R R Martin has a similar view but doesn't go quite as far as Ms Rice. On the other hand I do seem to recall our very own Amelia Faulkner saying that she would kill for fanfiction.

 

[Toby Frost]

I would find it flattering that somebody would think my settings were worth writing in.

There's also the legal issue of what you do about it, which I think makes commenting on it difficult. I'm not sure where you stand in terms of tacitly approving it.

 

[Narkalui]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that someone had written a Harry Potter fanfic which was a prequel about all of the older characters as Hogworts students. If I remember correctly, it was so well written and the details so meticulously researched from canonicity that J.k. Rowling considered authorising it as an official prequel.

or maybe I dreamt it... Dunno

 

[Brian G Turner]

My eldest reads a huge amount of fan fiction, especially Harry Potter fan fiction. I used to be dismissive of it and try to encourage her to read published novels, but she's struggled to find much that appeals to her personal tastes. Nowadays I'm just happy that she is actually reading.

 

[.matthew.]

I guess I don't care enough to have an argument about it (which is saying something since I do love a heated discussion) but if I had to take a stand, I'd say I didn't like it. With caveats.

Writing fan-fiction for personal use (writing practice etc) I would say is okay. Not good (because you're going to be using someone else's creativity) but if all you want to do is work on writing scenes etc, you would then have something to compare it to and judge it against.

I would, however, definitely draw the line at publishing it in any way, and that includes online. Many fan-fic writers post these stories for their own glorification and PR purposes, some accepting 'donations' and the like as well. This essentially makes it (even with no 'financial' gain) a self-interested act where they are using someone else's creation for their own ends.

If you're going to publish something as your own, it should be entirely your own. That is to say basing a story on a theme (magic school, chosen one, etc) is fine, but flat out stealing a setting and characters is not only morally questionable but also lazy.

Not to mention, that even when posted with 'love' of the source material, they are still diluting the author's original vision.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I would be flattered , but disappointed if they hadn't let me know first.

I guess it depends how the author feels about his/her characters and story universe; if they are protective they may not like to see their characters behaving in a certain way.

 

[Margaret Note Spelling]

What are all the Star Wars Expanded Universe books except authorized (whoops, that was back before Disney's takeover) fanfiction?

Brandon Sanderson was hired to complete Robert Jordan's unfinished Wheel of Time.

Jill Paton Walsh was hired to keep going with Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey novels.

Does fanfiction cease to be fanfiction if whoever legally holds the copyright (not necessarily the author) simply calls it official?

I've probably talked about this before. No matter how similar the ideas used, one author will never write exactly like another. To look at fanfiction as mere copies of another story is missing the point to a certain extent. People feel the need to write fanfiction because they're filling a gap they perceive in another story. The road not taken, the potential ideas, the things they believe should have happened, maybe just the fact that there are no more stories like they loved! It will be different. Even if they're trying to imitate, they can't possibly help bringing something of their own, something original (if we're actually taking that word seriously) to the table. The very way we look at life makes us all write differently.

For that matter, what story out there wasn't influenced by something already published? Fanfiction is a distinct category of writing, I agree, but at this point it's mostly based on what is currently legal to publish. At what point does something "heavily influenced by" become fanfiction? That's a fuzzy point already debated by multiple copyright lawsuits.

Maybe that's not a particular author's problem with fanfiction, though. Maybe it's not that people are being unoriginal--maybe it's that they'll ruin all the good characters and do things with them you never want other people to read. (Too original, in fact!) I can see an author's emotional problem with that, at least for their own characters. It goes back to the idea of differing interpretation. You've given the world an absolutely canon version of your characters, fine. Now a bunch of your readers go out and write their own versions of them. But to worry about other people reading those terrible bastardized versions of your characters, and having their vision of them marred forever, is really not giving them enough credit for discernment. They know it's not written by you. They will judge for themselves how true those versions are--and if they actually can't keep the two separate in their heads, there's just no helping those poor saps.

So that's where we step into the murky waters of canonicity. It's an old debate. Is everything the author says about the book canon to the story? Or is only the published material actually the true story? What if they contradict? What if you assumed one thing when you read it and the author later destroyed that assumption, is that first version of the story you had lost to you forever? Everyone has different preferences on this, and I would actually suggest that that's all it is--preference. No two people will read the same book and get exactly the same experience out of it. It's all heavily dependant on who the reader is, their past experiences, what they picture in their head, the people they've known. Back to the idea of making sure your characters aren't ruined for people by some other terrible version--an author can never be quite sure what their story will look like in someone else's head. We're not responsible for what they see, only for what we tell them. If they read potentially horrible fanfiction after that, it's their choice, and to try and prevent that choice in order to preserve the certain view of the character you want in their head is taking far too much responsibility for them. Parents censor a child's reading habits. Authors do not censor an adult's.

Which means, then, it's not just the author. Unavoidably, simply with the act of reading, the reader becomes a co-creator. Between the two of them is created something unique. That's why there can be so many vicious fandom debates over a single book or even passage. People read, yes, but then they have to interpret, and they will interpret differently. Your vision of the story is something distinct, and valuable.

If you loved a book enough that it inspired you to write, to tap into your own reading of the book and produce more of what you saw--if a particular, unfollowed plotline occurred to you while reading and you were so intrigued you had to find out where it leads--nobody should be able to stop you. The most they can do right now is keep you from publishing it. It makes everything even more straightforward, really. Fanfiction writers are (on the whole) writing for themselves, not commercial gain. They're writing because they love what they're doing. It's unquestionably awesome to use your skill to put bread on the table--but there's also something to respect in the labor of love.

Anyway, after all that--yes, I would be thrilled if someone was inspired by my books enough to write in my world. Hands up, who didn't once pretend they were a Jedi at some point in their lives? Well, my little brother as a kid once pretended to be a character my sister wrote. I still think that's the highest compliment he could have given her writing. So is fanfiction. It means the story became real for them as much as it was real for you.

I would go even further, and say that writing books at all, creating little imitations of reality, is in some sense fanfiction of real life, but I've probably philosophized long enough.

 

[Danny McG]

On the other hand I do seem to recall our very own Amelia Faulkner saying that she would kill for fanfiction

This!
It's like being the celebrity on The Simpsons, if you don't get it then you're too insignificant so far

 

[Rodders]

I’ve not really entertained the idea of fan fiction. Doesn’t it have a reputation for devolving in eroticism.

 

[Vladd67]

I’ve not really entertained the idea of fan fiction. Doesn’t it have a reputation for devolving in eroticism.

That is slash fiction, not all fan fiction is like that. In fact for awhile there was an annual anthology of StarTrek fan fiction published called Strange New Worlds.

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[.matthew.]

Does fanfiction cease to be fanfiction if whoever legally holds the copyright (not necessarily the author) simply calls it official?

I'd say yes but also no.

For example, the 6th Hitchhiker book was officially endorsed (and written by a known author). This was done without any input from the then-dead author though so felt a lot like a cheap cash-in. It also wasn't very good.

However, The Wheel of Time was the completion of an unfinished series, and was actively planned for by the original author. So despite not reading any of them myself, I'd say that was okay, especially as he followed the authors wishes and plotline.

For that matter, what story out there wasn't influenced by something already published? Fanfiction is a distinct category of writing, I agree, but at this point it's mostly based on what is currently legal to publish. At what point does something "heavily influenced by" become fanfiction? That's a fuzzy point already debated by multiple copyright lawsuits.

It's not fuzzy at all. When you use the characters, settings, and established lore of someone else's work, you are quite clearly committing the 'sin' of fanfiction

Think about all the people who spend decades building a world before they even write a single line of dialogue. World-building itself is hugely personal and poignant to those who create them and to have people urinating all over it could be considered offensive, especially if they then bottle it and pass it off as their own.

Edit: You might call it public indecency...

If you loved a book enough that it inspired you to write, to tap into your own reading of the book and produce more of what you saw--if a particular, unfollowed plotline occurred to you while reading and you were so intrigued you had to find out where it leads--nobody should be able to stop you. The most they can do right now is keep you from publishing it.

And this I agree with, but what is meant by publishing? Doesn't Chrons count any story you post here as published?

I would class publication as the distribution of words to others. Now I suppose it could be argued that would mean editors or friends reading it would count as being published, but I think the argument there would fall into fair use and public availability.

For example, you might loan a book you've bought to a friend quite legally, but you couldn't share digital copies with randoms on the internet without it being considered piracy.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I guess one of the most famous would be JRR Tolkein's Lord of the Rings which has inspired much material over the years. An interesting question is would Christopher Tolkein's publications be classed as fan fiction or as a collaboration? Obviously on a different scale to 'normal' fan fiction as he was getting his father's unpublished work into print.

 

[Laura R Hepworth]

I've read fanfiction, but I've never written any. As far as how I'd feel if some did a fanfiction of my work? I have fairly mixed feelings on it honestly. I'd certainly be really pleased that they liked it enough to want to write fanfiction of it, but I'm rather in agreement with @Toby Frost that I'd prefer if they didn't, or, at the very least, that they asked first.

Aren't all the Star Trek books really just authorized fanfictions?

Fifty Shades of Grey actually started out as a fanfiction of Twilight.

 

[Margaret Note Spelling]

When you use the characters, settings, and established lore of someone else's work, you are quite clearly committing the 'sin' of fanfiction

Is it all right if you just change the names? I have a trio of characters whose personalities and character dynamics I based extremely heavily off of Adric, Tegan, and Nyssa during Peter Davison's run as Doctor Who, a group of characters I felt were both shortchanged and underused in their potential. (Some of you may note that I do have another character called Nyssa, but she's someone entirely different and the only coincidence is name.) I'm going interesting directions with them, in situations their original incarnations would never have been able to experience, and it makes the story better. Doctor Who, in turn, based the companion Leela so heavily off of Eliza Dolittle from My Fair Lady that I actually noticed it before I even heard that was in fact what they did. There can actually be a beautiful art in translating a character so accurately from one story to another that the reader can tell the influence.

Definitely there is a point at which something becomes unquestionably fanfiction. My point was just that exactly how far isn't something set in stone. I could create a setting that was quite obviously a rip-off of Narnia but with all names changed, and people would call it a rip-off, but I doubt they would call it fanfiction. I would probably have to bring in, not only the setting, but also four human main characters with similar personalities, similar histories, and perhaps include a large carnivore as a deity figure. Even then, plenty of books and films have copied other things that closely and been called merely rip-offs. My main beef with a book like that would be the fact that they didn't go the whole way and just admit they were writing fanfiction. Pretending otherwise, that approaches false advertising and offers a vague sense of being cheated. But if you admit it (and I think that's the main qualification for fanfiction vs. a rip-off, that the names aren't changed) then you are actually giving the original author the credit they deserve for the world they created. That's not bottling it and passing it off as your own work, by any means. It's well understood that the setting and even some of the characters didn't originate with you.

I agree worldbuilding does feel like a very personal thing--I can immediately sympathize with that feeling of protectiveness, without even having to think about it. But when I do think about it, I actually have to wonder if that's really the case. Once you publish a book, for others to read--like I said, it becomes something shared between you and the reader. You can never come up with a fully three-dimensional, entirely realized world, where the reader doesn't need to imagine some of the things you didn't mention. There's not enough room in any book for that. Words are linear and limited. And your world will never be real in their minds unless they can imagine it three-dimensionally for themselves, as you can. (Narnia is famous for leaving a lot up to the imagination.) Most of the original world-building is your work, true, but once somebody reads it, it becomes theirs, too, to imagine and dream about and play around in. Worldbuilding may feel personal, but in the end, it's not. And yet somehow we're just bothered by the idea of another author taking and using a world or system we spent our time coming up with, and I'm not sure why. Is it because we feel like it makes things too easy for them? That they didn't earn it, and we did? And yet nobody is taking anything away from us, simply by making different use of an idea we came up with and shared with them. It's entirely their issue. And if they're genuinely good writers, they might even be able to make it better. I would hope, as an author, I'd be willing to let that happen rather than be focused on who gets the credit for the original idea.

Now, "urinating all over it," I think, would be more a matter of judgement based on the individual fanfiction story. It definitely happens. Naturally the author would find that sort of thing offensive, but do they have a right to forcibly stop them (other than asking them not to)? I'd find someone insulting me offensive, but I don't actually have to hang around and listen to them. Other people might choose to, but that's their own sick problem. I'd find someone messing clumsily around with my characters offensive, but I don't have to read it and if other people want to, again, that's their choice as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, if an author made it very clear they didn't want any fanfiction of their work out there for everyone to see, I'd consider it pretty rude to do it anyway. But lots of people are pretty rude every day, and we can't exactly prevent that except, maybe, not hang around with them. And again, none of that actually deals with the underlying concept of writing fanfiction itself. It can still exist regardless of whether the original author knows about it and is offended--fanfiction of dead authors' works being a notable example. Are we honestly prepared to be upset about the idea of our books spawning horrible little versions of themselves, not just during our lifetime, but beyond?

And this I agree with, but what is meant by publishing? Doesn't Chrons count any story you post here as published?

Good question! When I used the word, I only meant publishing for profit.

One way or another, then, there seems to be two major problems people have with fanfiction, at least from what I can see--1) a published author's work being used/copied for lack of creativity, and 2) that work being ruined by alternate interpretations. In other words, both a lack of originality, and an excess of originality! Either the fanfiction author is being lazy and not coming up with their own things, or they're trashing someone else's work by not being true to the original vision and adding too much of their own. Now that I think about it, that's basically the problem most film-makers have when they try to adapt books to the screen. That's a risky job if ever there was one! And ultimately at the root of the entire issue is that difference of visions between everyone about what the source material was actually saying.

Which comes right back to the idea of co-creation between the author and the reader. It really fascinates me, this concept that allows the same piece of text to be subject to so many different interpretations--the legitimacy of any being entirely a matter of judgement. Fiction books are where the idea of relative truth actually does have a certain legitimacy. And makes me relieved beyond measure that the real world isn't like that, because good heavens what a mess that would be.

 

[.matthew.]

Is it all right if you just change the names? I have a trio of characters whose personalities and character dynamics I based extremely heavily off of Adric, Tegan, and Nyssa during Peter Davison's run as Doctor Who

You mentioned Doctor Who and it sparked an interesting thought. An author tends to work solo (occasionally having a co-writer but that's rare) with an editor (who works for the author, not with them - so work for hire, not co-rights). This means the creative vision in a novel is all on the individual.

TV shows, especially ones that have run across countless generations like Who, have been written by many many many people (US shows are famous for the sizes of their writer's rooms). Does this dilute the rights of the IP? I'd argue it does, especially when you consider the likelihood that the organisation paying them to write it is probably a faceless organisation pumping an idea for profit. That said, I'd still consider fanfiction of this lazy, but I wouldn't have the same moral objections.

This is in direct contrast to an author, who as we all well know, are rarely able to make a true living off their craft, and are pretty much doing it out of love. I'd argue this labour of love is worth defending over that of TV shows worked on by hundreds and owned by people who have probably not even watched them.

Most of the original world-building is your work, true, but once somebody reads it, it becomes theirs, too, to imagine and dream about and play around in. Worldbuilding may feel personal, but in the end, it's not. And yet somehow we're just bothered by the idea of another author taking and using a world or system we spent our time coming up with, and I'm not sure why.

I like the idea of co-creation between the author and a reader, but I'd still say it's lazy to use another person's world and characters instead of coming up with their own. Even a straight rip-off is better because at least that is being honest.

Using someone else's work is harnessing their reputation. Would this writer of Harry Potter fanfic have any readers at all if not for Harry Potter fans? Would they even have anything to write about at all?

Using Harry Potter as a primary example on the subject (it's a big one), we can look at the early books (I haven't read the last two at all). These books are not well written. They're okay, clear and easy to read (as intentioned for a children's book and I enjoyed them as a kid myself), but they aren't well written. What made Harry Potter a success was the world-building. The orphan child who goes from abuse to celebrity and discovers a new world. His poor best friend who's rich in family. The swotty girl who acts as the straight man throughout. Magical school with ghosts and talking portraits. A haunted forest and a giant gamekeeper. You could go on and on, but altogether it makes a compelling narrative regardless of how it was written.

Writing fanfiction from this is literally taking the majority of what made the books work. It requires nothing in the way of skill, and little imagination.

I will concede that I have come up with the odd internal fanfic for a few books I've read, the what-if questions. Generally, mine revolve around the manipulation of whatever rules are set into the lore as I love playing with mechanics and pushing to see how I could break the plot. Still, I wouldn't write a story about it, and if I was inclined to do so, I certainly wouldn't then post it online for public consumption, as at the end of the day, there is that something that just bothers me about the idea.

Good question! When I used the word, I only meant publishing for profit.

So you're okay with stopping people doing it for profit? But what defines profit?

Even here, I'm not writing entirely for my own sake, I'm conversing and debating a point with the intention of being heard. That is itself a form of profit. I am benefitting in some weird way from being a part of this (if I wasn't, I wouldn't be doing it, and I suspect most others feel something similar). That means that once you put something out into the world, claiming credit for it, you are effectively siphoning an intangible something from the original author.

 

[Margaret Note Spelling]

So you're okay with stopping people doing it for profit? But what defines profit?

Actually, I didn't say I was okay with it. In my perfect world, nobody "owns" ideas (I'm a bit non-mainstream in that regard). Right now, I'm only talking about what's currently legal.

I'm not sure what you mean by an intangible something being siphoned. What does the original author not have after a fanfiction author's work, that they would have had before? I can only see it making a difference to the fanfiction author themselves, not the original author. Do you simply mean they're piggybacking on another's work in order to gain whatever they want to gain for themselves with the effort? I'll allow that's certainly possible, although they're still not affecting the original author. All they're doing, provided that actually is all they're doing, is shortchanging themselves as a writer. Trying to pass themselves off as being an author when they're not really doing what makes someone an author. The question is, is that true of all fanfiction writing, by the very definition of fanfiction? If not, then it's not a problem with fanfiction itself, but the individual author. And it's actually a pretty big claim against any story written, fanfiction or not--it's saying that the fanfiction author has added nothing of value from themselves, contributed nothing of their own, written nothing valuable in their story that you couldn't get in the source material. We're saying they did no work to deserve whatever gain they received from it.

The Harry Potter argument you made seems to drastically devalue the actual act of writing. Of constructing a story, of turning ideas and world into readable and enjoyable prose. All the techniques and bits and realistic dialogue and character nuances.... Ideas are not a book, a screenplay isn't a film, and fanfiction stories without all that work and skill on the part of their author will be painfully bad--the same as any original story. What J.K. Rowling did with her words, while not the best writing by any means, wasn't nothing. It was a part of the story and it took a certain amount of skill to construct and execute her ideas. Without it, the ideas simply wouldn't have been readable. It's not possible for just any random person to take the ideas and, with no skill or effort of their own, make something good enough to read and enjoy the credit for.

Still, you mention different kinds of profit, and maybe I am looking at this too narrowly. There could be gains to the fanfiction writer that don't require them putting forth actual personal effort to write a story people think is good. Let's take the absolute worst example--someone doesn't know how to write, doesn't care to come up with anything new, the simple act of writing fanfiction brings them satisfaction somehow without these things. I wouldn't call this person a writer, but that's all we have left--everyone else does some work, and could be said to deserve some benefit, even if it's only credit for good writing or effort. This guy doesn't deserve anything. What could he be gaining from this, from playing off of other peoples' work without appreciable work of his own? First off, he could be gaining improvement to his own skill. (You write long enough, you're going to get better.) He could be gaining relief from the stress of daily life. He could be indulging his own unhealthy fantasies. He could enjoy seeing your canon characters do completely random and weird things under his command, and not care bug-squat about consistency or realism or whatever you wrote.

None of which really matter, because he's not actually playing in a writer's world anymore. He's just having fun off by himself, and to be bothered by anything he does, or the personal, non-tangible benefits he gets at that point seems a bit strange to me. He sounds like he's already got a pretty unfortunate life anyway. I'll let him have his playthings!

Bottom line, even writing fanfiction doesn't take any responsibility or burden off of an author to write a good story. Every story will get judged on its own by good readers, and potentially even more harshly by comparison to the original. Write a bad or lazy story, people will smell it a mile off, depend upon it, and that only harms the FF-author's own reputation without affecting the original author's. Write a good story, people will say, "It's almost as good as the source material!" or even, "It's better than the source material"--and I think we can all admit that in some cases, they could potentially be right at that.

(At this point, I feel it may be necessary to say I am not writing fanfiction myself! Although I do have a main character who writes fanfiction, and I did start my writing career at the age of five with badly-spelled My Little Pony fanfiction. "The Day All the Ponies' Shoes Walked Away"--ah, the memories! )

All of that notwithstanding--if the idea just bothers you, for whatever reason, then that's entirely legitimate, and I respect that. No one can argue with feeling. Thanks for a good debate! I probably spent way more time on this today than I should have.